Joe Rogans Accomplishments and USTU/USTA events?

[Gnarlie]

I was being sarcastic and countering your argument..... Rogans school was not sport oriented. Scroll to the first pages for evidence of this from a former student.

Then it is on him.

 

[Steve]

It's the training format, not the arts fault. TKD is a classic martial arts style with crisp techniques.

TKD is burdened with counterproductive rule sets for developing fighters.

It's about goals and desired results. We've had conversations along these lines in the past. Someone interested in the UFC isn't likely to find their way into an Aikido dojo, for example. The path and the goal have to be congruent. People who train in TKD sometimes want to fight in MMA. We've seen enough to know that if they're smart and talented, and willing to cross train, TKD can be a fine base for MMA. But, more often, those who train in TKD just aren't intersted in that.

Correlation doesn't imply causation. There are many reasons having nothing to do with efficacy that TKD isn't as well represetnted in MMA as Muay Thai.

Now, I agree that a training format is important and can lead to issues. I truly do believe that the cuban TKD'ist in the heat of the moment pulled his kick involuntarily as a result of his training. But, dude, you're all over the board here making claims that just can't be supported trying to stir the pot and you're skirting the edge of style bashing, which isn't okay.

 

[Drose427]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold the phone. I don't think this is true. Anderson Silva is an accomplished striker in MT, Western Boxing and pretty much anything else he wants. Machida is a karate guy who cross trains liberally, but you can see the base. The rest, including GSP, may have trained in a style, but cross trained to such a degree that you can't attribute any one style to their success. There are some top tier strikers from many arts in the UFC. Saying that "the top strikers tend to come from TKD or Karate" just isn't true. Some may come from those styles, but there are many, many more top tier western boxers and muay thai fighters in the UFC than there are Karate or TKD. Shoot, Cung Le was a Sanshou guy... kung fu. Pettis has been boxing as long as he's been training TKD and has also trained as a kickboxer.

This is in no way an indictment against either of those arts. It's just about what is and isn't. We have seen enough talented strikers from TKD and karate to establish that if a guy wants to train for MMA and puts in the time, they can be just as successful as anyone else. But the most common formulas for high level success in MMA are some combination of boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, and wrestling.

For all the TKD guys you can blatantly see the TKD, its not difficult. Henderson moved away from it the most, but its still obviously there. Cung Le was successful in TKD before Sanshou, long before Sanshou. And fought in the UFC as if he was competing in a Kukki event.

The biggest reason MT BJJ Boxing and Wrestling are the most common is because why should someone dedicate themselves to a 3-5 year BB that entails things they dont need for the ring, such as forms and huge amounts of time spent of philosophy and SD drills instead of choosing something meant for the ring where nearly everything they do is in preparation of that.

All the fighters i mentioned have very obvious Karate and TKD bases, and were extremely successful with it in modern MMA. I also previously mentioned kick boxers who were successful from those styles in the early days of kickboxing.

 

[Laplace_demon]

It's about goals and desired results. We've had conversations along these lines in the past. Someone interested in the UFC isn't likely to find their way into an Aikido dojo, for example. The path and the goal have to be congruent. People who train in TKD sometimes want to fight in MMA. We've seen enough to know that if they're smart and talented, and willing to cross train, TKD can be a fine base for MMA. But, more often, those who train in TKD just aren't intersted in that.

Correlation doesn't imply causation. There are many reasons beyond efficacy that TKD isn't as well represetnted in MMA as Muay Thai.

Now, I agree that a training format is important and can lead to issues. I truly do believe that the cuban TKD'ist in the heat of the moment pulled his kick involuntarily as a result of his training. But, dude, you're all over the board here making claims that just can't be supported trying to stir the pot and you're skirting the edge of style bashing, which isn't okay.

Rule sets are not intrinsic to a martial art, and is therefore not style bashing. It is not what makes the martial art. Techniques are.

 

[Gnarlie]

It's the training format, not the arts fault. TKD is a classic martial arts system with crisp techniques.

TKD is burdened with counterproductive rule sets for developing fighters.

No, it isn't. It develops fighting skills just fine. It just doesn't develop MMA or kickboxing fighters, which makes sense, because you don't take tennis lessons to become a rock star.

 

[Gnarlie]

Rule sets are not intrinsic to a martial art, and is therefore not style bashing. It is not what makes the martial art. Techniques are.

That statement, right there, is illuminating.

 

[Laplace_demon]

No, it isn't. It develops fighting skills just fine. It just doesn't develop MMA or kickboxing fighters, which makes sense, because you don't take tennis lessons to become a rock star.

A MT fighter is used to full contact and is likely to take hits better at all forms of fighting, making him a better equipped fighter.

 

[Gnarlie]

A MT fighter is used to full contact and is likely to take hits better at all forms of fighting, making him a better equipped fighter.

You know WTF sparring is full contact, right?

 

[Steve]

For all the TKD guys you can blatantly see the TKD, its not difficult. Henderson moved away from it the most, but its still obviously there. Cung Le was successful in TKD before Sanshou, long before Sanshou. And fought in the UFC as if he was competing in a Kukki event.

The biggest reason MT BJJ Boxing and Wrestling are the most common is because why should someone dedicate themselves to a 3-5 year BB that entails things they dont need for the ring, such as forms and huge amounts of time spent of philosophy and SD drills instead of choosing something meant for the ring where nearly everything they do is in preparation of that.

All the fighters i mentioned have very obvious Karate and TKD bases, and were extremely successful with it in modern MMA. I also previously mentioned kick boxers who were successful from those styles in the early days of kickboxing.

Drose, let's be clear. You asserted that "The top strikers in the UFC tend to come from TKD or Karate." This isn't true, although we can surely acknowledge that there are SOME quality strikers who have trained in TKD and/or Karate. And also, to be clear, not every one of those fighters you mention had a base that was strictly TKD or Karate. Pettis, for example, trained as a boxer for as long as he trained in TKD. One could just as easily say that his base is western boxing and ignore the TKD.

I think that there are a LOT of reasons that MT, BJJ, Boxing and Wrestling are the most common elements within MMA, but I'm not sure the extra bits are among them. Most of the BJJ practitioners train in a gi and train techniques that are unsuitable for MMA in addition to no-gi submission wrestling. Not every boxing technique or Muay Thai technique is suitable for MMA. Different rules, different tactics.

 

[Drose427]

A MT fighter is used to full contact and is likely to take hits better at all forms of fighting, making him a better equipped fighter.

Kukki TKD is full contact.

They eat kicks to the face and stand there with a broken nose like nothing happened...

 

[Steve]

Rule sets are not intrinsic to a martial art, and is therefore not style bashing. It is not what makes the martial art. Techniques are.

Frankly, style bashing is whatever the moderators think it is. I'm trying to help you out. I've been around here long enough to know that what you're doing is riding very close to (if not over) the line. Take this as friendly advice.

 

[Drose427]

Drose, let's be clear. You asserted that "The top strikers in the UFC tend to come from TKD or Karate." This isn't true, although we can surely acknowledge that there are SOME quality strikers who have trained in TKD and/or Karate. And also, to be clear, not every one of those fighters you mention had a base that was strictly TKD or Karate. Pettis, for example, trained as a boxer for as long as he trained in TKD. One could just as easily say that his base is western boxing and ignore the TKD.

I think that there are a LOT of reasons that MT, BJJ, Boxing and Wrestling are the most common elements within MMA, but I'm not sure the extra bits are among them. Most of the BJJ practitioners train in a gi and train techniques that are unsuitable for MMA in addition to no-gi submission wrestling. Not every boxing technique or Muay Thai technique is suitable for MMA. Different rules, different tactics.

But you cant ignore their karate/tkd base, because its blatantly there in how they fight. They dont let you forget it. Its integral to their fighting style.

 

[Laplace_demon]

You know WTF sparring is full contact, right?

They are padded, don't allow low kicks, no punches to the face etc. You won't be wawing your feet against each other in a real confrontation.

 

[Drose427]

They are padded, don't allow low kicks, no punches to the face etc. You won't be wawing your feet against each other in a real confrontation.

They hardly "waw" their feet at each other...you really should watch more. These guys do just as much damage to each other as MT guys through chest protectors.

Im pretty sure if you can take a jack back pivot to the face and fight like nothing happened, you can take a punch.....

 

[Steve]

But you cant ignore their karate/tkd base, because its blatantly there in how they fight. They dont let you forget it. Its integral to their fighting style.

AND it is still not true that most of the top strikers in the UFC have a TKD or Karate base. I'm sorry if I'm not being clear. You overstated your position. I would say that VERY FEW of the top strikers in the UFC have a TKD or Karate base, ALTHOUGH, we can surely acknowledge that some of the very best have trained in one or both of these Martial Arts.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Rule sets are not intrinsic to a martial art, and is therefore not style bashing. It is not what makes the martial art. Techniques are.

Your first statement is actually correct. Congratulations! Good job!

Your next displays, sadly, the sort of extremely limited and incorrect understanding of TKD and the martial arts in general that I'd expect from someone with your extremely limited, incomplete and largely incorrect knowledge and training.

It's not that I don't expect to hear things like that from yellow belts. I do. Not infrequently. It's just that most of the ones I hear it from - even the 7 or 8 year old kids - are far more teachable. They actually know that they have a lot to learn.

 

[Drose427]

AND it is still not true that most of the top strikers in the UFC have a TKD or Karate base. I'm sorry if I'm not being clear. You overstated your position. I would say that VERY FEW of the top strikers in the UFC have a TKD or Karate base, ALTHOUGH, we can surely acknowledge that some of the very best have trained in one or both of these Martial Arts.

The Greatest MMA Strikers of All Time Tapology MMA Rankings

Heres a rough list. Not all UFC but roughly half in the top 10 come from Karate/TKD.

 

[Laplace_demon]

You still havent responded to all the examples I gave of highly successful TKD guys in the UFC,

Cung Le was undefeated in Kickboxing Fighting like a kukki TKD practitioner.

He was trained in kickboxing as well.

 

[Drose427]

He was trained in kickboxing as well.

Yes, he trained in sanshou. But he very obviously fought like a kukki TKD guy in the UFC, and kickboxing, He was one of the most prominent TKD guys out there, his TKD base was extremely obvious.

 

[Steve]

The Greatest MMA Strikers of All Time Tapology MMA Rankings

Heres a rough list. Not all UFC but roughly half in the top 10 come from Karate/TKD.

Dude. Come on. You can't claim Anderson Silva. He trained in TKD for a year or two before taking up Muay Thai at 16.

I don't have a lot of time to go through the entire top 100, but scanning the rest, it might be true that many took TKD lessons as an adolescent. Really, who hasn't? But, once again, there is little here to suggest that "most' of these guys or even half can claim TKD or Karate as a base for their elite level MMA careers. Some, sure. But half? Most? Seriously. Take the rose colored glasses off for a few minutes.

In the top 10, you have 2: Cro Cop, Machida and maybe... maybe Chuck Liddell if you're extremely generous with your definition of the term Karate. That makes 1 TKD guy and 1 (maybe 2) Karate guys. A far cry from "most' and not really very close to half.