Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[drop bear]

Clearly he doesn't consider, by implication, TKD capable of giving an artist tools to protect ones self in a fight.

Training methodology is at work here. I am of the same belief. That if you are training to fight the end result should actually be a fight. Or you get a bit weird.

Tkders who go at it full contact fight OK. Those that don't well nobody knows one way or the other.

Joe rogan says his experience of being man handled by a boxer and suggests tkd does not train as effectively for fighting. I would agree that if you could not jump in a ring and survive an encounter with a boxer then you need to reevaluate your training.

So say you wind up like this guy.

Then the obvious advice is do some boxing,get better hand skills. And never fight that guy again.

 

[paitingman]

I listen to Joe Rogan's podcast a lot. He's pretty clear when he plays devils advocate and doesn't seem to be the type to make statements just to stir the pot and promote mma over all else. He values being real and genuine and pretty down to earth, so if he makes a statement about tma or anything, I generally believe that is how he truly feels.

All that aside I don't think he's statement is based on his "personal failings"
that's just people trying to discredit or cut him down because they disagree.

I think his stance comes from his years and years involved in martial arts training and commentating. He has seen plenty of times when guys from different backgrounds come into the bjj gym or mma gym and not have all the tools they needed to be prepared for that environment. Not just the one time thai fighters were knocking his block off. I give him credibility as a guy who has been involved with martial arts for many years and has witnessed and experienced as much as just about anyone on the forum.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Training methodology is at work here. I am of the same belief. That if you are training to fight the end result should actually be a fight. Or you get a bit weird.

Tkders who go at it full contact fight OK. Those that don't well nobody knows one way or the other.

Joe rogan says his experience of being man handled by a boxer and suggests tkd does not train as effectively for fighting. I would agree that if you could not jump in a ring and survive an encounter with a boxer then you need to reevaluate your training.

So say you wind up like this guy.

Then the obvious advice is do some boxing,get better hand skills. And never fight that guy again.

Nice video. It's clear to see that the guy may have done quite a bit of point sparring just from the number kicks that were thrown without punch combos attached to a kick. He also had his hands down a lot from habit.

 

[Chris Parker]

Kosen is actually a contraction of:

Koutogakko 高等学校 = High School

PLUS

Senmongakko 専門学校 = Technical or Professional College

EQUALS

Koutosenmongakko 高等専門学校 = High Schools & Universities i.e. "Scholastic," in this case referring to what we might label an Interscholastic Judo League.


“Kosen” is an abbreviation for koto senmongakko, which is, in turn, a compound of two words— “koto gakko” meaning “senior high-school” and “senmon gakko” meaning “professional or technical university.” Specifically, the term “Kosen” refers to a network of prestigious prep schools and universities. It is analogous to the American phrase “the ivy league.”

In the early 1900s, when rules for Judo competition weretaking form, the rules that came to be used for interscholastic contests in this “ivy league” tended to encourage and reward newaza more than rules used elsewhere. As a consequence, Kosen newaza tactics became highly developed and refined.

So Kosen judo is not something distinct and separate from Kodokan Judo; rather it is one of the many varieties of judo within the Kodokan tradition. As such Kosen judo could not defeat Kodokan Judo, because Kosen judois Kodokan Judo.

And… this is different from what I said how, exactly? I will say, though, that no, Kosen schools are not "analogous to the Ivy League"… it refers to a type of school, being a technical high school/college, for kids between 15 and 20 years old, and encompasses over 60 schools, many of which are national schools (set up by the government). The Ivy League, on the other hand, is an elite group of Colleges/Universities in the US… which is very different.

Most importantly, though, this looks like yet another of your unattributed copy-paste quotes… with no reference to where it came from, and with the lack of understanding shown (the idea that Kosen Judo was in competition with "Kodokan Judo" for one thing), I find it hard to take it seriously as a good source.

Slang is informal.

The word Kido actually is a formal term.

The problem in Korea is the Chinese ideograms that spell Aikido and Hapkido are the same... And they are pronounced different in Korean and in Japanese.

Also, even though they use the exact same Chinese characters, the arts are not the same.

The only official confirmation from the Japanese is that the Korean founder of Hapkido took a one or two (10 day) seminars from the founder of modern Daito Ryu Aiki-jūjutsu.

The Korean founder has a very different story on how much training he received, but it was significant enough that the art form has very strong influence by DRAJJ. DRAJJ is also the parent art of Aikido.

Actually, no… the closest we've had to any confirmation of Choi training in Daito Ryu is Kisshomaru Ueshiba's recollection of his fathers (Morihei's) comments about "a Korean man who came to one or two training sessions"… not Daito Ryu under Takeda, it must be noted. In fact, there has been no evidence from Japan of Choi's training at all.

google "Kido Hae"

It is well enough known in Korean MA leadership, and many MA schools are involved with them.

Just so you know... Hae means association, fellowship or federation.

So… it's an associations name? That hardly makes it common, or slang… nor even a "formal" term as you suggested previously. Seriously… I don't think these words mean what you think they mean…

Dont confuse being wrong with conceding. I conceded the point, at that time.

Admitting your wrong is conceding… I mean… admitting your wrong, but not conceding is sheer lunacy, frankly… you already know you're wrong… but won't give up the argument?

I am doing research, and may rebut Chris Parker when I have sufficient evidence to make my case.

Ha! All the best with that…

Your sarcasm is pretty open, and approaching disrespect. I would like to remain on friendly terms, but I have no problem freezing you out of my online existence, should you continue.

Yeah… these powerless threats won't endear you to any here, you know…

 

[donald1]

Im not good with the abbreviations is TMA = traditional martial arts? And this guy thinks its ineffective? If so Im guessing he dosnt know what bunkai-kumite is. I know ive been thrown on my back and put in joint locks enough times to know it is

By the way. Who is joe rogan?

 

[Hanzou]

Im not good with the abbreviations is TMA = traditional martial arts? And this guy thinks its ineffective? If so Im guessing he dosnt know what bunkai-kumite is. I know ive been thrown on my back and put in joint locks enough times to know it is

By the way. Who is joe rogan?

Rogan is coming from the perspective of what's being used in MMA. For the most part, traditional arts aren't used in MMA. This is especially the case with kung fu, which is the source of much of his rant.

 

[drop bear]

Rogan is coming from the perspective of what's being used in MMA. For the most part, traditional arts aren't used in MMA. This is especially the case with kung fu, which is the source of much of his rant.

And it is not correct. Martial arts are separated into either good or crap.

If the only people you can defend against are the other guys in your class you are probably crap. If you can defend against the best in the country you are probably good.

 

[drop bear]

And it is not correct. Martial arts are separated into either good or crap.

If the only people you can defend against are the other guys in your class you are probably crap. If you can defend against the best in the country you are probably good.

Kung fu that steps up is OK. Look at sanda.

 

[Hanzou]

Kung fu that steps up is OK. Look at sanda.

Is it really fair to call Sanda "Kung Fu" when it's a mix of several different (many non-Chinese) styles?

 

[donald1]

If the only people you can defend against are the other guys in your class you are probably crap.

Thats why you train, provided you know a good instructor

 

[drop bear]

Is it really fair to call Sanda "Kung Fu" when it's a mix of several different (many non-Chinese) styles?

Yes. Incorporating other systems does not invalidate the style.

(Cough cough bjj.)

 

[Hanzou]

Yes. Incorporating other systems does not invalidate the style.

(Cough cough bjj.)

Bjj has always been an eclectic style though. We tend to not care where it comes from as long as it works. Traditional TMAs tend to frown upon cross training or breaking from tradition. Hence why had all that anti-grappling fun in the other thread. The exponents of those styles couldn't bring wrestling moves back to their TMA, so they created their own moves and claimed that they were hidden in the forms the entire time.

 

[Tez3]

The exponents of those styles couldn't bring wrestling moves back to their TMA, so they created their own moves and claimed that they were hidden in the forms the entire time.

Hardly true is it. As I have said before Wado Ryu karate has grappling techniques in and quite openly as well because the founder put them there. As a Juijitsu Master before taking up karate I suspect he was quite good at the grappling and ground stuff.

As you have never studied bunkai I'm surprised you think you can pass comment on it and think you are correct.

 

[Hanzou]

Hardly true is it. As I have said before Wado Ryu karate has grappling techniques in and quite openly as well because the founder put them there. As a Juijitsu Master before taking up karate I suspect he was quite good at the grappling and ground stuff.

As you have never studied bunkai I'm surprised you think you can pass comment on it and think you are correct.

Yeah, but unless I'm mistaken, Wado Ryu wasn't the focus of those anti-grappling threads.

I'd also hesitate to call a style founded in 1934 "traditional".

 

[Drose427]

Bjj has always been an eclectic style though. We tend to not care where it comes from as long as it works. Traditional TMAs tend to frown upon cross training or breaking from tradition. Hence why had all that anti-grappling fun in the other thread. The exponents of those styles couldn't bring wrestling moves back to their TMA, so they created their own moves and claimed that they were hidden in the forms the entire time.

I hear all the time how TMA's tend to be close minded on cross training

but none of the Korean GM's Ive met have ever had an issue with it. Assuming you're not up and in their face about it, I mean would you brag about you wouldnt brag about how much better the gift your son got you was than the gift your daughter got you would you?

We have quite a few instructors who teach things they learned elsewhere, heck when I was 17 my instructors had me teach proper sprawling technique in out SD class.

Training methodology is at work here. I am of the same belief. That if you are training to fight the end result should actually be a fight. Or you get a bit weird.

Tkders who go at it full contact fight OK. Those that don't well nobody knows one way or the other.

Joe rogan says his experience of being man handled by a boxer and suggests tkd does not train as effectively for fighting. I would agree that if you could not jump in a ring and survive an encounter with a boxer then you need to reevaluate your training.

So say you wind up like this guy.

Then the obvious advice is do some boxing,get better hand skills. And never fight that guy again.

The issue with Joes story was that his specifc training WASNT in any sense realistic

He competed in what are now kukki-style events (hands down, overly bouncy, etc.) The other 2 major groups of TKD, dont spar like that at all.

The most likely thing that happened (based on the WTFers who've done the same thing in the ring) if he went in fighting the kukki way, I mean I believe he said at one point he didnt know how to use his hands...Im not the greatest boxer, but I get the TKD style straight punches (i.e. jabs and straights) in with relative ease on the other amateur boxers at the gym. Joe also should have known how to control distance better on boxers, it isnt some terribly hard thing to do. Especially when they arent used to kicks, the MMA class at my gym started asking me to spar with them for that reason exactly. To make sure they were used to guys who could kick more than the outside of a thigh.

As for defense, I really dont care what style/system youre from if you cant keep your guard up when you know its full contact you deserve to get Ko'ed.


For getting in the ring, to be fair even putting MMA and Muay Thay guys in a boxing match would get them hurt, and vice versa. They could be great at what they do, but they wont be as good as folks doing something else.

Toney v Couture

The MT guys who fought in Hi-kick Kickboxing got manhandled cause they couldnt use their win condition

The WTF-ers who thought they could fight in kickboxing like they did at Olympic events

But I agree that to fight hard, you have to train physically hard. Light- no contact sparring isnt gonna cut it in kickboxing or MMA. But medium-hard will.

 

[Hanzou]

I hear all the time how TMA's tend to be close minded on cross training

but none of the Korean GM's Ive met have ever had an issue with it. Assuming you're not up and in their face about it, I mean would you brag about you wouldnt brag about how much better the gift your son got you was than the gift your daughter got you would you?

We have quite a few instructors who teach things they learned elsewhere, heck when I was 17 my instructors had me teach proper sprawling technique in out SD class.

Which isn't surprising since nearly all modern Korean martial arts date back to the late 1940s, and pull from a variety of styles.

Korean MA tends to be eclectic by design.

 

[drop bear]

The most likely thing that happened (based on the WTFers who've done the same thing in the ring) if he went in fighting the kukki way, I mean I believe he said at one point he didnt know how to use his hands...Im not the greatest boxer, but I get the TKD style straight punches (i.e. jabs and straights) in with relative ease on the other amateur boxers at the gym. Joe also should have known how to control distance better on boxers, it isnt some terribly hard thing to do. Especially when they arent used to kicks, the MMA class at my gym started asking me to spar with them for that reason exactly. To make sure they were used to guys who could kick more than the outside of a thigh.

You have different levels of this thing though. There are a couple of Tkders I know of who mix it up kick boxing. So can handle themselves. And there are those who never go outside the class room. And would get owned by anybody with half a clue.

This training in a traditional sense that does not allow outside influences and seems to be for the poupose of stroking the ego of the instructor.

Ameridote satires this school very well.

Otherwise what we have found with the karate guys that train with us is they can't fight us like karate guys. So even if you are not learning new technique you still have to go outside your school and mix it up with other guys to understand your own system better.

Joe could have very easily experienced one or both of these situations. It is not uncommon to find. And can be very deceptive and seductive. I mean who does not want to do a style where you win without effort?

And so this idea that if you never fight you are somehow a better martial artist. And we don't have to put you up against an actual boxer. We can just get Barry to pretend to be one and show how we are really superior without any risk at all.

 

[drop bear]

For getting in the ring, to be fair even putting MMA and Muay Thay guys in a boxing match would get them hurt, and vice versa. They could be great at what they do, but they wont be as good as folks doing something else.

Mma guys box because they understand that they need to risk loss to acquire skills.

And to do that you can't train in this insular sense.

Gsp sparring with one of the best Thai fighters in the world.

 

[renc]

Bjj has always been an eclectic style though. We tend to not care where it comes from as long as it works. Traditional TMAs tend to frown upon cross training or breaking from tradition.

This isn't really true in my experience, I can't quote solid statistics but as a guesstimate most Chinese grandmasters will have trained to a high level in at least three martial arts. Many 'traditional' martial arts were born from cross training, this is partly why there are literally hundreds of Chinese martial arts. The truth is the same the world over, to be good at martial arts you need to be versatile. We incorporate five 'traditional' Chinese arts together with groundwork from BJJ and Sambo at the club where I train. It isn't a problem, it shouldn't be a problem.

On the other hand I could quote several famous Gracies who have frowned on cross training at points where 'GJJ alone' was shown to be inadequate in MMA. There is an unfortunate legacy of weaving a story of being 'the best martial art' so closely into a martial history. This legacy kinda lives on in Joe Rogan.

Is it really fair to call Sanda "Kung Fu" when it's a mix of several different (many non-Chinese) styles?

Do you have a source for this please?

Thanks

 

[Drose427]

This isn't really true in my experience, I can't quote solid statistics but as a guesstimate most Chinese grandmasters will have trained to a high level in at least three martial arts. Many 'traditional' martial arts were born from cross training, this is partly why there are literally hundreds of Chinese martial arts. The truth is the same the world over, to be good at martial arts you need to be versatile. We incorporate five 'traditional' Chinese arts together with groundwork from BJJ and Sambo at the club where I train. It isn't a problem, it shouldn't be a problem.

On the other hand I could quote several famous Gracies who have frowned on cross training at points where 'GJJ alone' was shown to be inadequate in MMA. There is an unfortunate legacy of weaving a story of being 'the best martial art' so closely into a martial history. This legacy kinda lives on in Joe Rogan.



Do you have a source for this please?

Thanks

Hanzou has a habit of attributing anything that doesnt fit his perception of a Martial Art as being that way because of cross training in what he feels are superior styles