JKD without Wing Chun?

[Xue Sheng]

And herein lies the doorway to a series of questions in our attempt to understand Jun Fan Gung Fu... what is Jun Fan Gung Fu? Many have referred to it as Modified Wing Chun. So where does Wing Chun stop and Jun Fan start? What exactly was modified and why? Which tools does JFGF possess that are common with WC? Which tools does it possess that aren't?

Actually I was learning Jun Fan and not JKD because my teacher had his school set up that way. ANd I was actually trying to understand what JFKF is and if I was able to stay at the school long enough I may have gotten a bit further in that understanding

Also I have some little background in Wing Chun and I did see modified Pak Sau and Wu Sau used as blocks and I say a rather extensive use of a modified Huen Sau for both high and low blocks in combination with a punch and the punches were all centerline like Wing Chun. At this point I basically see JFGF as Wing Chun on Steroids

What I'm getting at is that many of us site JFGF as the base for which to express our own JKD, but how many of us have actually taken time to understand and define what JFGF is? How can we hope to ultimately express our own JKD, if we can't express or understand it's base?

I was looking forward to see exactly what JFKF meant to JKD but I was not able to train there long enough.

Learning and understanding the confinements of your Art does not define a person to "confined" or "static" art. On the contrary, understanding these limitations should empower us with the knowledge to observe and liberate ourselves from them. Again, my humble opinion and POV.

Let me think about that for a bit, but I think I agree

 

[arnisador]

Great to hear! I've also trained JKD Concepts for a comparable amount of time, however my instructors never really handed out belts.

Mine came to the decision to do so reluctantly, but wanted to more clearly indicate grades in part to keep him straight in class--so-and-so is an orange belt so probably needs to work on this, etc. He didn't have grades of black belt at the time I got mine (then left due to an injury that inhibited my training) but was considering added them.

 

[Thunder Foot]

...Also I have some little background in Wing Chun and I did see modified Pak Sau and Wu Sau used as blocks and I say a rather extensive use of a modified Huen Sau for both high and low blocks in combination with a punch and the punches were all centerline like Wing Chun. At this point I basically see JFGF as Wing Chun on Steroid...

And here is where we ask ourselves again, what exactly is a modified pak sau, wu sau? or huen sau? Who is it that determines that any of these motions can only be done in one specific way?
Food for thought...

 

[Xue Sheng]

And here is where we ask ourselves again, what exactly is a modified pak sau, wu sau? or huen sau? Who is it that determines that any of these motions can only be done in one specific way?
Food for thought...

True and agreed, but understand I know just a little more about Wing Chun than Jun Fan and that is not saying much. I only know Siu Lum tao of Wing Chun and I only trained Jun Fan for a month so when I say modified it may mean little it may actually be Pak Sau and Wu Sau and they can be called the same thing when used in different ways. For answers to that we would need someone with much more Wing Chun that I have.

Either way I still look at Jun Fan as Wing Chun on steroids

 

[James Kovacich]

And herein lies the doorway to a series of questions in our attempt to understand Jun Fan Gung Fu... what is Jun Fan Gung Fu? Many have referred to it as Modified Wing Chun. So where does Wing Chun stop and Jun Fan start? What exactly was modified and why? Which tools does JFGF possess that are common with WC? Which tools does it possess that aren't?
What I'm getting at is that many of us site JFGF as the base for which to express our own JKD, but how many of us have actually taken time to understand and define what JFGF is? How can we hope to ultimately express our own JKD, if we can't express or understand it's base?

Learning and understanding the confinements of your Art does not define a person to "confined" or "static" art. On the contrary, understanding these limitations should empower us with the knowledge to observe and liberate ourselves from them. Again, my humble opinion and POV.

Difining "your art" (be it WC, JFGF, JKD or whatever) is what I'm talking about. Not saying you shouldn't but thats not what Bruce professed.
Did he want us to follow him "word for word" or "be our own?" True, understanding the base is crucial. But as each generation evolves. Will the base remain the same? Again. Did Bruce want us to follow him "word for word" or "be our own?"

 

[Xue Sheng]

Difining "your art" (be it WC, JFGF, JKD or whatever) is what I'm talking about. Not saying you shouldn't but thats not what Bruce professed.
Did he want us to follow him "word for word" or "be our own?" True, understanding the base is crucial. But as each generation evolves. Will the base remain the same? Again. Did Bruce want us to follow him "word for word" or "be our own?"

From all I have read from Bruce Lee I would tend to vote no.. he would not want anyone to follow him and this has always been a little confusing to me. DOn't get me wrong I liked what I trained and I was rather impressed but I can't help but think that Bruce Lee would not be all that happy about the existance of multiple JKD schools, particularly those that stress sticking to his curiculum

 

[punisher73]

If we look at Bruce Lees writings that JKD was "just a name" to talk about his concepts than I think that "yes", you can teach JKD without the WC. Matt Thorton is one example of someone who states that they teach JKD and it is almost all western boxing and BJJ.

I don't think you can learn Bruce's style of Jun Fan, without learning some WC though. The two are too intertwined.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Difining "your art" (be it WC, JFGF, JKD or whatever) is what I'm talking about. Not saying you shouldn't but thats not what Bruce professed.
Did he want us to follow him "word for word" or "be our own?" True, understanding the base is crucial. But as each generation evolves. Will the base remain the same? Again. Did Bruce want us to follow him "word for word" or "be our own?"

Thanks for discussing in a respectful manner. These types can easily become distasteful my friend. And I agree, the goal is to be ourselves however I believe there has to be a starting point as does anyone who's ever formally trained JKD; less they were as diligent as Bruce and discovered it on their own. Bruce taught a base "material" he deemed important to the progression of his students. So why is it that we are willing to accept the various current expressions of today's JKD generation, yet are unwilling to accept Bruce's; the founder of the art? Does the current GEN have it right and Bruce has had it wrong all this time? Mind you, there are a limited few how can execute a fraction of what Bruce was able to. And if this is not the case and we are seeing a progression, then I ask a progression from what?

Does a proficiency in the base material of Jun Fan prevent a person from continued growth and evolution? Not by my standards, on the contrary I believe that it fulfills the role that we've given it as a "base material" to continue further evolution, providing adequate parameters upon which we can subjectively absorb useful and discard useless tools... adding whats uniquely ours. But unfortunately for our community, that is where our biggest controversy lies... in what our base material is. Also the reason why there are so many watered down "styles" of JKD. I understand Bruce said be like water, but I'll be damned if he meant to the point of "watered down".

 

[Thunder Foot]

 

[Boran]

yes, you can learn JKD. it's not the style that makes you a fighter, it's your instinct. you have to have the killer instinct.

 

[simplicity]

I have train in both perscribed method's JKDC and OJKD.... Now 33 yrs later, perscribe to either, but Jeet Kune Do... The writing is on the "wall" folks, as to what BL & BLS have been saying all along.... Most see the JKD logo on top with seeing first, the three bottom logo's... Something to think about!

 

[Instructor]

My impression is that those focus on concepts think not that they're 'merely' looking at concepts but that, to the contrary, it is they who have gotten past the Jun Fan/Wing Chun to truly see the big picture. I'd still like to see what JKD looks like when applied to a base of Korean arts only, say.

It would look like Hapkido..

 

[Thunder Foot]

This was written when a certain someone asked Bruce if he could blend his Martial Art with JKD and teach it.

If JKD is a concept to apply to any art, then why'd Bruce write this?

 

[simplicity]

"Jeet Kune Do its not a concept, but sound principles at a higher level of understanding simplicity thru moment, which transends everywhere in real fighting" ... JM

 

[knight2000]

Thank you thunder foot. The answer is no. JKD is comprised of 60 percent or more wing chun. Without the wing chun then it's not JKD. I'm not saying that's bad just don't call it JKD as Bruce said in the XY letter

 

[simplicity]

Thank you thunder foot. The answer is no. JKD is comprised of 60 percent or more wing chun. Without the wing chun then it's not JKD. I'm not saying that's bad just don't call it JKD as Bruce said in the XY letter

60 %... Say What? Where did you come up with this?

 

[wingchunguy]

Didn't Master Wong answer this question on his TV show? JKD uses 5 of the ten concepts of wing chun (economy of motion, immoveable elbow, simultaneous attack and defense, trapping hand and centerline theory ONLY WHEN USING THE WING CHUN PORTION OF JKD). So yes, you should learn wing chun. You should do it for several years before going into JKD (It would just be better to go into TRADITIONAL WING CHUN which is complete), this way you know basic technique structure, basic stance, basic footwork and the relationship of your body to the centerline. This will give you a good foundation to continue in JKD. But be forewarned, since JKD only uses 5 of ten concepts, it will not be as effective or efficient as the traditional, which uses these same ten concepts to dictate the proper application of wing chun in a fight or self defense scenario. This allows traditional to be flexible and allows you to tailor your wing chun to your own personality, abilities or disabilities, and that of your opponent.

 

[wingchunguy]

Gotten past it? No, they DESTROYED IT! By using only 5 concepts, you make your JKD/modified wc LESS EFFECTIVE AND LESS EFFICIENT!

 

[wingchunguy]

This shows me you don't what you are talking about. TRADITIONAL WING CHUN is the only FULLY CONCEPTUAL MARTIAL ART, NOT JKD, NOT MODIFIED. If anyone tells you otherwise, they are wrong! I don't know who you learned that from, but you are wrong. If you want a TRUE fully conceptual martial art, then you would have to take traditional. You need to use ALL TEN CONCEPTS AT THE SAME TIME to be a fully conceptual ma and for your wing chun to work properly. The ten concepts dictate proper application of your wing chun in a fight or self defense scenario. If you use 5 or 6, it isn't 10 and is NOT fully conceptual, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU MIX IT WITH TECHNIQUE-BASED MARTIAL ARTS! Maybe you should do some research on the subject so you can find out for yourself.

 

[blindsage]

There is no "TRADITIONAL WING CHUN", wing chun has been modified in pretty much every generation. Wing Chun is far from "the only FULLY CONCEPTUAL MARTIAL ART". Maybe you should do some research on the subject so you can find out for yourself.