simplicity
Green Belt
Jeet Kune Do = Sound principle's that are dissolved over time, at the third stage of cultivation... "IT" is that way ---------------->
Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney
Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney
JKD vs. Wing Chun
- Thread starter DoubleZ711
- Start date
That seems like a pretty WC biased view of things. Now here's my JKD biased opinion.
While it's true Sijo Bruce Lee didn't complete his WC training, he did see the deficiencies inherent in the system when it came to going outside of "trapping range" (whether grappling or long/kicking range). What do you do if your opponent runs back faster than you can shuffle forward and trap, not giving you the trapping structure - or goes of center-line on purpose and shoots in?
He really delved into a lot of other martial arts not often mentioned in the well known JKD "origin story" (consisting of WC, western boxing, fencing). He brought in Northern Shaolin kicks, chop-chou'i / qua chou'i from Choy Li Fut mixed with Mantis, energy drills from Mantis and Tai Chi, Judo, etc. At least that's what I heard from Sifu Dan.
That said, I'm pretty sure during Sijo Bruce Lee's life, there were 2 phases to Jeet Kune Do. First was more of a style (hence Way of the Intercepting Fist) - which was based on...intercepting. This was where he developed the typical JKD structure - the bai-jong stance, 5 ways of attack, etc. Prior to his, he was practicing his "Tao of Chinese Gung Fu" - often characterized as modified Wing Chun. As he continued his studies, he came to the conclusion of having no way as your way, but kept the term "Jeet Kune Do." At least that's what I've gathered.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
+1
**************
As far wich to choose? That is your burden and your path alone to choose my friend. We can sit here on the net and dish out opinion after opinion on whosits and whatsits aplenty all day...but once you log off and join actuality none of this exists and you are left with your own decisions based on your position in life. Gather the intel you need to make a choice but relaize things change and JKD today could be Kapap or Hagannah tomorrow and systema in 6 months and so on and so forth. You may infact never find a home within any particular "system" or "style"... I never have and never will and I dont expect others to put on my pants and walk my walk for me either. I gather what raw materials I need from reliable sources and forge my own blade in the fire and water of my own path.
We cant be you and vice versa. You must figure out what your purpose and perception is and progress accordingly. If it does not nourish you then discard it. Dont become delusional and think there is one source for nourishment just becuase its plentiful either.
Respect to all of you
thats my rant for the day
Cheers everyone
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Excuse me? I'm sorry I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and why you are addressing me!
dnovice
Blue Belt
I'm sorry my friend but for this post...
:flame:
:wuguns:
verkill:
you get the thriple flame. overkill... absolutely.
:flame:
:wuguns:
verkill:you get the thriple flame. overkill... absolutely.
suicide
Black Belt
this sord of like the post that says judo vs jujitsu it depends on the person executing the art on how effective he is :angel:
I'm glad someone asked this question because I myself am having difficulty choosing. I mean yes I do very much love JKD, but people often right comments that is off putting like the fact that JKD has alot of structural weakness and a good WC would be more efficient in his system than a JKD student. or that JKD students are less knowledgeable for the fact that the have no idea about tecnique, sensitivity, structure, usage etc etc.
Both are good, but having done both I have to say that the "aliveness" of JKD, and it's concern with a wider variety of possible attacks, has a lot to offer. That having been said, WC is great and I'd still be studying it if I could. It greatly improved by JKD, for one thing!
Well put. Now forgive my impertinence, since I'm a chunner, and just visiting here. But since this is the JKD forum, shouldn't the question be, "How much WC do you use in your JKD?". Do you do a lot of chi-sau, trapping, and very close range stand-up work? Or do you emphasize other ranges and approaches?
Moving between ranges is a big emphasis, but there is a fair amount of trapping. There's a lot of boxing for hand techniques. No chi sau. There's also a good amount of Kali in the mix.
zepedawingchun
Black Belt
Sounds like a Bruce Lee bias view of things. Why not something closer to the truth. Bruce Lee was an exceptional martial artist, but he was only human. His Wing Chun was far from complete, having only SNT, Chum Kiu, and very little of the wooden dummy sets. Only enough to classify him as an intermediate student at best. So the deficiencies Bruce saw were not that of the Wing Chun system, but actually of himself. His lack of skill and knowledge of Wing Chun did not give him the tools to handle opponents 'outside the trapping range' or 'running backwards faster than he could shuffle forwards' or from 'going off center-line on purpose and shoots in' as you say. Wing Chun has the knowledge and ability to handle those situations (what makes you think it doesn't), but it's up to the practitioner to do it and make it happen. At Bruce Lee's skill level, he didn't have the WC knowledge of how to handle those situations yet.
It's always easier to blame someone or something else for our own inadequacies rather than ourselves for our lack of knowledge or skill.
Because Bruce Lee lacked the knowledge of the complete Wing Chun system, and from everything we've heard, Bruce would most likely not get it through the Yip Man family line, plus there was no other Wing Chun available to him at that time, he went outside of Wing Chun to find another way.
If you don't believe me, go to Hawkins Cheung Sifu's website and read up on what he has to say about Bruce Lee and Wing Chun.
http://www.hawkinscheung.com/
Also, ask Sifu Dan Inosanto if he thinks Sifu Francis Fong (and people in his lineage) has problems dealing with opponents running away, or moving off center to enter.
Robert Lee
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It becomes easy to say this and that. JKD or Wing chun, has no set goal to prove. The person is more important then a name. What that person does is his way. What a person was able to do at a certion time does not mean that the person did not become much better. Bruces name is used in many ways good and bad. He was a Man who tried to better his self. And perhaps helped others to find there path. Not the best, not the worst. JKD has its its roots in Wing Chun. BUT it went beyond Wing chun What a person does Has NO name in doing, Just a name creates a path to learn by. JKD , wing chun Is the path. You are the delivery Of your expression
JKD is a philosophy.
I thought the weakness' in wing chun were the reasons why Bruce looked to patch them up.
Bruce said
"I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that. There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. There is nothing artificial about it. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is. Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive. Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back."
zepedawingchun
Black Belt
JKD has it's roots in Wing Chun, yes, but it didn't go beyond it. JKD went beyond Bruce Lee's knowledge and understanding of Wing Chun. Bruce only knew or had half of the the Wing Chun system. How can you claim something has flaws or shortcomings when you don't know everything there is to it. The purpose of WC and JKD is the same, to use as little effort as needed (energy, power, technique, etc.) to defeat your opponent. To be as efficient and direct as possible and to express it your way. Period. Bruce did exactly what the monks did about 350 years ago. His product is JKD and theirs is Wing Chun. Bruce devised JKD to prove to Yip Man and the Wing Chun family he could reach the higher levels of skill in combat, to defeat any opponent, without his knowledge of the complete Wing Chun system.
Robert Lee
Brown Belt
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One have you ever trained JKD. Jkd is an expression. exceprts from wing chun. fencing and western boxing. Remember the cup of tea. Perhaps yours is over filled to see beyond Wing Chun.
Glycerine0160
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I was talking to my friend about this.
He first took the jkd side in saying a wing chunner may think they are adapting to a new situation or style by finding answers in their techniques, but really they are not changing anything. They are just using a different "strategy".
JKD is not subject to such things like only linear motion.
The next day though he came up to me and told me the whole idea was impossible, JKD is a philsophy, and wing chun is an art. You can't even compare them.
I see his point.
He first took the jkd side in saying a wing chunner may think they are adapting to a new situation or style by finding answers in their techniques, but really they are not changing anything. They are just using a different "strategy".
JKD is not subject to such things like only linear motion.
The next day though he came up to me and told me the whole idea was impossible, JKD is a philsophy, and wing chun is an art. You can't even compare them.
I see his point.
zepedawingchun
Black Belt
I trained JKD from 1983 - 1985. I have also attended many of the JKD Concepts seminars given by Guru Dan Inosanto over the past 25 years, through the Francis Fong Martial Arts Academy. Sifu Francis Fong is the southeastern JKD representitive for Guru Dan Inosanto and JKD Concepts in the US. It is also part of the FFMAA curriculum. Perhaps you need to train in a legitimate Wing Chun school and see there's more to it than Bruce Lee knew. See the website for details:
www.francisfongacademy.com
Robert Lee
Brown Belt
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I do not need to train in a Wing chun School. You may very well enjoy Wing chun. BUT no art is complete. IF this was so then only 1 way would be the truth. Bruce did not complete His wing Chun training. BUT that does not limit his ability. And yes francis Fong Must of felt JKD had something to offer Or he would not have looked into it. You chose W C in the end AND feel its your method fine but each will find there needs As each art has a core value And that alone is all that needs trained NOT the complete system. But thats my thought
zepedawingchun
Black Belt
See my PM for a reply. My I ask from who's JKD lineage you derive your training from? Thanks for an entertaining debate.
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