JKD Srands on it's own?

[Samurai]

Jeet Kune Do is quite possiblely the one art that is most plaqued by controversy, political backstabbing, and mis-understandings.

There is so much talk of ....

Bruce Lee said ....
Bruce Lee trained in....
Who would win, Bruce Lee or ...
Was Bruce Lee the ...
....actually killed Bruce Lee

It is high time that Jeet Kune Do stood on it's own as the complete martial art it is. In his life, Bruce Lee wrote and article called "Liberate yourself from classical Karate". Today we need to liberate ourselves from Jeet Kune Do and Bruce Lee.

We need to return to the solid, proven themes. TRAIN HARD, Practice HARD, spar HARD, and play HARD.

Bruce is NEVER coming back. Deal with it ! Instead take his knowledge and move forward with it. RESPECT the teacher (Sifu Lee) and the teachings, but make them your own.

Just some thoughts...please reply,
Jeremy Bays

 

[bob919]

sounds like a good idea i mean bruce was good, a great combat strategist but he is notm the beginning and end of fighting there are probably better people out there and we should strive to become better than bruce but how do we do that when we think bruce is the best fighter ever

 

[Samurai]

Very SIMPLE ...........

TRAIN Harder, Smarter, and Better then we are currently doing. Who cares if you are ever "the best".....be the "best" you that is possible.

--Jeremy Bays

 

[James Kovacich]

That easier said than done. All I can speak for is myself. I was taught by Sifu who became my close friend.

He was taught by his father who was the student of Bruce Lee and James Lee in Oakland.

I've gotten to know my Sigung pretty good and he's pulled me aside to teach me, to influence my training I suppose.

But for me knowing that my Sigung was not only a student of Bruces but also a friend, and that he kept most of the teachings pure, its hard to let it go like the say. Who cares about the liberation or dissolving of the techniques. Some choose not to!
Shouldn't that be OK too?

I'm just refering to my point of view, thats all.

 

[Samurai]

It is A LOT easier to type these things then to do them. That is why there is not another Bruce Lee around where I live (not to say that there is not another person with qualities that rival Lees).

I guess that my main focus is not on the techniques themselves. THe techniques and teaches are but TOOLS in the system to take you to a higher level. That higher level is the ability to fight and THINK for yourself.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

PS- I want to stir the hornets nest with this one folks !!

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Samurai
.... THe techniques and teaches are but TOOLS in the system to take you to a higher level. That higher level is the ability to fight and THINK for yourself.

That applies to every art, doesn't it?

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Samurai
It is A LOT easier to type these things then to do them. That is why there is not another Bruce Lee around where I live (not to say that there is not another person with qualities that rival Lees).

I guess that my main focus is not on the techniques themselves. THe techniques and teaches are but TOOLS in the system to take you to a higher level. That higher level is the ability to fight and THINK for yourself.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

PS- I want to stir the hornets nest with this one folks !!

I agree about the tools to get to a higher level!

But I think its B.S. when they say you have continually add and subtract. What I have is "useful" and what I "reject" is my choice.

I'm not talking for anybody but me. I've added quite a bit, but I'm not throwing away any of the Jun Fan Gung-Fu. It is "useful!!" My system is about 65% stand up and about 35% ground grappling. That is quite a bit of modifying and self personalization.

 

[IMAA]

If we say in JKD to: "Use what is useful, and Reject, that is useless".

Can we say within that specific phrase that any particular person can take or reject from his own personal experiences?

In other words what works for you maynot work for me. So in that sense I am blending my own JKD... We know that thier are those certain techniques that Bruce added in JKD/JunFan such as:
Biujee(eyegouge), Jeet Tek(lowline stop kick), Jik Chung Chui (straight blast) these are techniques within JKD that we learn as tools...And we all accept them as "tools that work" However they may not work for some or on someone all the time..
the Tao States :

simply to simplify, using no way as way.... not having any boundries, having no limitatios as limitations.

So with this said: If one takes from one system and adds say a juen tek (spin kick) is that derived from another system? Or is that JKD?

The JkdConcepts people catch lot of slack because they draw other martialarts systems such as Muay Thai, Savate, Kali, Silat or other systems into a JKD curicculum....but thats what JKD is, to use what is usefull and reject that is useless. If Muay Thai works for someone and they can use trapping hands then thier is JKD chemistry there.
If one can reach out and touch someone with a Savate side kick, and fall back into a straight blast and it works...isnt that JKD?

Do you always have the option to use "lead leg/arm attacks"?

I know if you train the 5 ways of attack, this helps you better prepare for these situations, but mostly when the 5 ways are being established its in a sparring setting....
HIA, PIA, ABD, ABC, SDA....These are really simple sparring techniques, that every martial arts class teaches when learning to fight, however in JKD thier just labled and it makes more sense at that time....

Way before I ever took JKD I was learning the 5 ways of attack, however they just were taught in a sparring session, they were never labeled nor catogorized as "THIS IS BRUCES JKD 5 WAYS OF ATTACK" they were just basic sparring prgressions.

I didnt mean to get off the beaten path...just as samurai stated, "

I guess that my main focus is not on the techniques themselves. THe techniques and teaches are but TOOLS in the system to take you to a higher level. That higher level is the ability to fight and THINK for yourself.

just my 2 cnts worth
Hope i didnt blaber on too much....
btw JKD rules

 

[bob919]

well put IIMA

 

[James Kovacich]

No techniques could ever work for everyone or all the time! But thats a given!

My brand is more like the concepts but whilke staying closely to the original, if you could understand where I'm coming from.

I've walked my own path all along. I think my Sifu knew that too. He always told me that he wanted to keep his art pure saying that he didn't want it to be seen as the "concepts" version. That is his way and his right and he is a true master who's planted his own seeds and is growing his own tree while still growing branches on the original tree.

I promised him that I wouldn't teach his art differantly! That I can't take back and that is the foremost reason I call my art Kempo Jujitsu! I had many years in several arts but mostly Karate before I started training under him in late 1997. Also I was actively practicing Brazilian Jiu-jitsu too. I was unknowingly destined to walk my own path.

Today I am adding traditional Jujitsu because it blends well with all methods of grappling. My art is about 35% grappling and will continue to evolve but I have a question.

"the Tao States".........
I'm in no way disrespecting you ao any other "concepts" people.
But isn't taking quotes from the Tao of JKD kind of along the lines of not "using no way?"

Even the "concepts " guys are original in their own way. JKD was destined to be differant, simply said.

But since the TAO was mentioned, "my interpetation" of your question:
Do you always have the option to use "lead leg/arm attacks"?
The answer is no, the lead stance is one tool leading to the higher level and the ability to fight and THINK for yourself.

You have much insight and I have a lot of respect for people who really trained in JKD before they speak about it.

They are all differant but they are all one!

 

[IMAA]

You have much insight and I have a lot of respect for people who really trained in JKD before they speak about it.

Thank you AKJA it is pleasant to find jkd'ers that have open minds such as yourself, thier out there far few and between but out there....

I train in JKD Concepts and in OJKD as well. I Can and DO keep them seperate for respect of both JKD type Clubs ( if you will). They both have great things to offer...howevr if and when I spar or if I ever have to fight, I'd surely put my own spin or mix on things...and at that moment and time my own JKD comes to play.
Wich is really what I think Bruce wanted it to be like to begin with.

U also stated:
But isn't taking quotes from the Tao of JKD kind of along the lines of not "using no way?"

I am not sure I completly understand this question.

I quoted the TAO OF JKD simply because all the truth of all what sijo was trying to explain or do is within that book. I hate to use the term for lack of a better word but Its the "BIBLE" of martial arts in "MY" eyes... The Tao of JKD is simply a guide for all us who want to succeed in being a Better martial artist. Not just staying in one relm. We must endouver all thier is in martial arts.

To me martial arts is a lifetime journey not some skip this forget that episode that some make it to be. I try to be as dedicated as I possibly can to learning all I can. So with that said, if its a lifetime journey shouldnt you want to learn as much as you can, from whatever you can? "BE LIKE WATER" in your martial art training.... you conform to what you do, however at the same instance dont be stagnant in your training too... thiers 2 types of water, flowing and stagnant.....be flowing...always moveing to advance to learn, to develop... if yourstagnant like a pond you'll never go any farther....this is why I like to choose the JKD Concepts path as well....
JKD has always been a controversial thing in my eyes.. in fact I think too much time is spent on arguing over wich JKD is the best JKD between JKD groups.... I think that if more time was spent researching and studying and trainng, all the disagreement and errogant JKD politics would stop...its been ongoing for over 20 yrs now....hopefully one day it will end.....but im not counting on it...

Be well my friends
IMAA

Do you always have the option to use "lead leg/arm attacks"?
The answer is no, the lead stance is one tool leading to the higher level and the ability to fight and THINK for yourself.

BTW : GOOD ANSWER

 

[James Kovacich]

Probably the only answer to my question would be another question. My point really was more like half a point. I have the Tao and the others published by John Little and I read them from time to time.

I meant if we read the Tao it lays out the core of Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do but the Tao finishes with:

"If people say Jeet Kune Do is differant from "this" or from "that," then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is just what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it."

Bruce spent a lot of time setting the foundation of confusion. A lot people don't see it like I do but I think he wanted the differances to exist so that those of us who "recognized" would have no choice but to evolve into our own.

I'm a "half breed," in the sense that I practice the old and welcome the new. I take the new in full stride but along side the old. I also practice my other arts and my personal martial art is something that only can refine and what I give back to those who are willing to listen becomes theirs.

 

[IMAA]

YES, indeedy...

The last paraphrase on the last page of the Tao does say just that....

" If people say JKD is different from " this" or from " that" then let the name of jkd be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please dont fuss over it...

And I wholeheartedly agree with that!!!!

Bruce was very much into ZEN philosophies and the whole side of enlightenment... He had a humble side but yet he did have a hell of an egotistical side too from that I've been told. He was constantly evolving thru martialart as well as mental evolvement.
I think he spent alot of timetrying to confuse the average heresayer more to disrupt thier thought patterns of how they looked at martial arts training. He wanted those that was able to understand him to then learn and evolve as he did...

He also states this: pg 206
So, we acquire a sense of worth either by realizing our talents, or by keeping busy or by identifying ourselves with something apart from us-be it a cause, a leader, agroup, possessions or whatnot. The path of self-realization is the most difficult. It is taken only when other avenues to a sense of worth are more or less blocked. Men of Talent have to be encouraged and goaded to engage in creative work. Thier groans and laments echo thru the ages.

Things such as these just shown how intelligent he was...now wheather or not he actually stated these or got these from Zen or confusious or whatnot is beyond me.....I just know he did make it all fit his jkd agenda.

One of my favorites though is this....
" JKD is the art not founded on technique or doctrine. IT IS JUST AS YOU ARE..... pg. 204 tjkd

THanks
IMAA

R.I.P. those of the space shuttle columbia 2/1/03

 

[James Kovacich]

I noticed that you quoted the lost interview too.

The be like water analagy is probably the simplest to grasp and I almost forgot hearing it, thanx!

What he left us was a foundation for us to refine and use as a base in our teachings to our students to set the stage for their foundations. But at the same time theres a lot from my "tradional"
past that we have been liberated from that I hang on to.

Like the "respect and loyalty" that is very big in the "old arts." A perfect example is a couple of guys that I teach from work. We are friends and I will teach them as fast as they can handle it. But there are a couple of their friends that I refused to teach because they are disrespectful and to much into the "street B.S." and I found out that one of the guys that I teach told one of the guys that I refused that he would teach him since I wouldn't.

I feel disrespected and this week we are going to have a talk about it. You see what I mean, his loyalty was to his friend not even concerning where his knowledge comes from or the fact that I might get upset. I'm not really upset, its a matter of respect and he needs to understand this from my position.

My student has a long way to go but he can go a long way but he needs some insight in "integrety" from me to help him along. He came to me as a Thai fighter and probably thinks that seeing things once is enough and in his head he probably thinks that the way he acts is OK, but when he understands the issues of integrety and loyalty and respect he will be ready to grow.

 

[IMAA]

AKJA-

your welcome: "Be like water" anology is one of my favorite he quoted. Bruce was very in tune with this one. He used it far more than any other anology i've ever heard him use.

"be like water" is like an end all statement that in a no nonsense way conforms to everything JKD stands for. And for that mater that Martial Arts in General stands for.

" if water is pourn into a cup, it becomes the cup".

WATER becomes it's surroundings in that sense.
we as martial artist today take for granted that what we learn is spent on knowledge seeked from our instructors , instructors, passed on to us. And that thier somewhere is some valdity to it.

IF JKD was only a name and there was to be no fuss over it, then why is thier a fuss over it? JKDC, OJKD, JKDU, HCJKD, etc...

JKD is JKD no matter what you believe in, in my eyes. If it works for you than its Jeet kune do. ( the way of the intercepting fist)

And AKJA I feel you in he sense of the loyalty part.
However, I say this, to each his own... somewhere they must find thier own path. JKD is an unlimitless path. Even Bruce took it.

SIJO was never qualified or certified to teach in any particular system or style. He took what he felt best suited him and created a system that is controversial today. Who else can do that?

Let your own students created their own path...Not even Sijo was loyal to GM Yip Man, Sijo was sore at GM yip because he held back certain training from bruce in the wing chun system, such as mook jong etc....

Loyalty is taught by the integrity of the teacher, and not every student holds that key....INTEGRITY, HONOR, RESPECT, SELF DISCIPLINE, is the biggest things martial arts is supposed to teach us outside of "self defense".. that come last ....its on the teacher, I have somewhat the same issue as you do brother, thiers a couple of guys I took on as "students" that in the same sense are commited but lack the integrity of being high class students....see I dont charge for lessons but I do my best for adding insight and respect, self discipline, and making my name to be on the top end of things.....if these "specific" people bring me down, I dont blame them. I blame myself.

One works with me (like you) and he gives a great deal of effort but his lifestyle needs to change on how he reacts and acts to certain things.....

the other has been with me for a few years but his schedule at College get in his way from training and it bothers me that he isnt getting the just out of what he is looking for.... my co-instructor see's him off and on, and invites him reguraly but this person I understand has alot of things goin on within his college life and has great experience and well to be an excellent martial artist, chooses other paths than to train, for what ever its worht.. I dont hold it against him, because I respect him as a person and I wish that when were together that he can train with me... out of everyone i've trained i've put my whole self into his training and itshows....he can go far.....one day I hope that he never forgets where he got his training from and that he looks back on that....however if he doesnt, than thats life..."it goes on"

Just alittle of my own knowledge...

IMAA....

 

[James Kovacich]

YOU DO UNDERSTAND!
tHANX, BRO