"Jitsu/Jutsu"

[Flatlander]

I keep seeing people referring to "Jiujitsu", and "Ninjitsu", which I was always under the impression was an improper way to express these terms. From what I understand, the "jutsu" ending is correct. However, I am aware that I may be wrong, and thus I seek to clarify. Is one correct and the other incorrect, or are both acceptable usages?

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Both are in use. Jitsu seems to be the more modern. I think it's been the generally accepted for most arts. But some, such as Ninjutsu or Taijutsu, or even some Jujutsu's still use the older pronunciation.

I could be wrong though,

Jeff

 

[arnisador]

We have had a couple of threads on this, e.g. here, and I think the concensus has been that -justu is probably more correct but that several systems have continued using the older -jitsu (which was correct under the earlier romanization system in use in the 50s).

 

[Brother John]

To my understanding: JUtsu is the Correct way, and that "Jitsu" was the result of a misunderstanding in pronunciation when the west was just getting to know Japan.

Some really great masters, though, still use "Jitsu"...so over all, use what your instructor gives you.
Nage Waza, by any other name....still "Crunches" just as sweet.......


Your Brother
John

 

[dart68]

My advise is to use "jutsu" here. It seems we have some internet nazis that will completely blow a gasket if you use "jitsu". They won't simply tell you that they think you're wrong for using the latter, but will berate and belittle you for using it.

 

[Fu_Bag]

Hi Flatlander

I think you're right about people who are unfamiliar with the differences between "Jitsu" and "Jutsu" using "Jitsu" for the sake of predatory McDojoism. Who doesn't love a good NeeinJeeiytsu lesson, afterall? There are people, though, who know the difference and specify that they're speaking about "Jitsu" or "Jutsu" when trying to teach something.

Here's a free online English-Japanese, Japanese-English dictionary if anyone needs one: http://www.freedict.com/onldict/jap.html

This dictionary site defines "Jitsu" as Truth, Reality, Sincerity, Fidelity, Kindness

and

"Jutsu" as Art, Way

So, to me, either can be used appropriately depending on what point you're trying to get across. I think it's kind of cool that both are used to describe the same thing.

Have a nice day,


Fu Bag

 

[Brother John]

For instance:
Wally Jay's art: Small Circle Jujitsu

Can't take away from Mr. Jay's mastery of the art, but he does use the "I" instead of the "U".

In Ninjutsu the case seems to be that if it doesn't come from Takamatsu Sensei and those in that lineage....then it's bunk. And Takamatsu Sensei made it clear that it's with the U .
simple enough. Therefore you can usually tell those who are bunk or just plain lying about Ninjutsu because they don't use the U but the I .
make sense???

I'm tired....

Your Brother
John

 

[Fu_Bag]

I'm sorry, Brother John. I wasn't trying to make your day more difficult. I guess I should've gone a little further with what I was saying. There actually is at least one group out there that uses both the Ninjitsu and Ninjutsu spellings when talking about what they do and why they do it.

When they're talking about the "Jitsu" part, they're definitely making it clear that they'd like for people to use what they learn in a positive way. Now, I don't believe they claim to be associated with the Takamatsu-den teachings and, as a result, they do get flamed a lot. Hatsumi-sensei has recently written about Kyojitsu being something different from what people commonly thought of it as. It's one of those things where you'd have to have read the book to understand it so I guess putting that out there wasn't really fair to those who haven't read it.

I think the main question was regarding the different spellings so I hope the dictionary definitions will help on that point.

Take care,

Fu Bag

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

I've also seen "jitsu" defined as "day" so I tend not to use it because in my head I'm always thinking things like "gental day" when I see "jujitsu".

 

[Last Fearner]

Most people in the Japanese Art are in agreement that "jujutsu" and "Aikijutsu" (also ju justsu, or ju-jutsu) are the correct translations for a more accurate pronunciation guide. Most in the Brazilian category will acknowledge that they have specifically chosen to spell it "jiu-jitsu" to denote their Brazilian lineage.

I believe that most of the variations using the "i" instead of the "u" came from those outside Japan mispronouncing, and misspelling the previously accepted version. However, not many seem to know the origin of the variation of "jujitsu" (ju jitsu, or ju-jitsu). Some of the research I have done in the past indicates that the Chinese translation to English was originally pronounced jujitsu.

I read a source, a long time ago, that said an early form of the Japanese "Ninjutsu" originated earlier, during war-time in China, and was translated as "ninjitsu," but this art of espionage was never fully developed in China. The Japanese learned of this concept, refined it, perfected it, and made it famous (probably, most elements of the Japanese ninjutsu never existed in the original Chinese ninjitsu). I don't know exactly when they started using the modern term, but it was eventually labeled as "ninjutsu" since their language pronounces the term for "art" as "jutsu."

I believe that the "Jitsu" spelling (or better yet, pronunciation) is from Chinese influence, which is why some consider it an "older" version. As for the Japanese pronunciation and spelling, I believe it has always been "jutsu." Other experts might disagree with this, but then, what field ever has all of its experts agreeing on everything?

 

[arnisador]

I'm pretty sure that -jitsu was the official transliteration at the time it was introduced. A later of change of transliteration schemes brought about this change of spelling in English. So, it wasn't an error, or if it was it came from properly applying a less-than-perfect scheme.

Some general info. here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanji#Modern_systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization#Japanese

 

[BlackCatBonz]

the only proper spelling of jutsu is 術, everything else is an attempt at trying to represent it phonetically..........nothing to do with chinese or brazilian whatever.

there are several different romanization methods, as arnisador said, that is where the discrepancies come from......like the old kenpo/kempo thing.

some people just get really anal now when they see it spelled ju/nin/iai/whatever-jitsu.

jitsu is however another word, as in kyo/jitsu........but i'm not getting into that.

 

[pgsmith]

I agree with both Shawn and anisador about the origins of "jitsu" / "jutsu". Another thing that chaps me that people fail to keep in mind when they enter into rants like the jitsu/jutsu debate, is that Japanese is a context driven language. There are dozens of ways to say exactly the same thing with basically the same meaning depending entirely upon the context in which it is used, and who you are saying it to. This is absolutely horrible to us westerners who are used to having one word mean one thing. Since the vast majority of us don't speak Japanese, we hear these words with either limited, or no context. Then we tend to squabble about exactly what a certain word, by itself, means when much of its meaning is dependent upon the context within which the word is used. This is the primary reason for things such as the perpetual "jutsu" vs. "do" debates that are easily encountered on-line. To further muddy the waters, the Japanese language is filled with homophones, words that sound alike but mean different things. Thoroughly confusing to us poor fools just trying to do our martial arts in peace.

 

[Tripitaka of AA]

And if force of numbers are needed to ensure the truth is known, then I shall add my voice to Shawn, Arnisador and Paul, all three of whom have said what I would like to have said.

Just to repeat, "jitsu" and "jutsu" are just different ways to approximate the Japanese word. Older systems of Romanisation used "jitsu" and so some of the schools in the West that have been around for a long time use that spelling. Modern methods of Romanisation (that's just turning the Japanese word into Roman letters), would use "Jutsu".

"kyojitsu" is a different word and meaning altogether and would correctly be written with the "i".

Arts that have decided to retain their original spelling are entitled to do whatever they want... but it would be wrong to assume that there is anything more to it than simply their choice of spelling. You can't look at "jitsu/jutsu" and infer that there is any specific history behind it, or that they are wrong or right to use it, but if you ask which spelling is correct then the answer would be "jutsu".

 

[Don Roley]

I read a source, a long time ago, that said an early form of the Japanese "Ninjutsu" originated earlier, during war-time in China, and was translated as "ninjitsu," but this art of espionage was never fully developed in China. The Japanese learned of this concept, refined it, perfected it, and made it famous (probably, most elements of the Japanese ninjutsu never existed in the original Chinese ninjitsu). I don't know exactly when they started using the modern term, but it was eventually labeled as "ninjutsu" since their language pronounces the term for "art" as "jutsu."

I believe that the "Jitsu" spelling (or better yet, pronunciation) is from Chinese influence, which is why some consider it an "older" version. As for the Japanese pronunciation and spelling, I believe it has always been "jutsu." Other experts might disagree with this, but then, what field ever has all of its experts agreeing on everything?

Your source is wrong. Trust me, I know.

Jutsu has always been jutsu in Japanese. But different areas have different stresses in pronunciation. In many places, a hard consanant almost drowns out the "u" sound that follows it. So one way of writing it would be J'tsu and sometimes as Jitsu.

But there is a "jitsu" in Japanese. So there is the chance that someone could translate something back into Japanese from English and cause problems. Hence I and others say that "jitsu" is wrong because it can cause confusion.

 

[Kevdak]

What about Jiu-Jutsu?

 

[arnisador]

That's how the BJJers have always spelled it, and they're sticking with it!

 

[FierySquidFace]

I was allways under the impression that "jutsu" was the correct term, but "jitsu" seems to be a modern, accepted variation... still... "jutsu" is correct.

 

[Steve]

I was allways under the impression that "jutsu" was the correct term, but "jitsu" seems to be a modern, accepted variation... still... "jutsu" is correct.

I always thought it was "zheesu", but I guess I've only heard Brazilian's say it.

 

[pgsmith]

I was allways under the impression that "jutsu" was the correct term, but "jitsu" seems to be a modern, accepted variation... still... "jutsu" is correct.

That is actually backward. "Jitsu" was how it used to be romanized until the late 50's, when the romanization system was changed. "jutsu" is now the correct romanization, but "jitsu" is still used in a lot of cases because of its earlier general use, or people just not bothering to learn any better. You are right in that "jutsu" is correct.