Jewelry, Head Scarfs Etc in tournaments?

[Big Don]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=cp_fho6fokmp149&show_article=1&catnum=2
Saw this article, and the reaction to what, in my mind is a common sense rule, and wondered what others thought.
My sifu doesn't allow any jewelry when sparring, and I can't imagine he would allow a head scarf such as a hijab to be worn, just because of its loose fitting nature...
Well? Was the Judo tournament right to not let the girl compete wearing the hijab, or is it, as the girl implies, anti-muslim bigotry?

 

[MBuzzy]

This is a really tough one. There are a lot of things to be considered here. The big one is religious freedom and the right to openly practice your religion. But there are also issues of safety and fair competition to consider. Another issue is that most styles' uniforms are just that...Uniforms. Muslims are allowed to practice any religion they want, but in the military for example, they can't wear their head dress at work for obvious reasons. That is of course a much smaller issue, but I take offense when people wear miscolored shirts under their uniforms, or crazy colored headbands or loud jewelery....personal opinion, but I think it is disrespectful to the tradition - of course, getting into religous things....its a whole new ball game. She meant no disrespect, she had no idea she was doing anything wrong, and had no idea that anything would happen. Someone who wears a headband with a skull on it to a competition HAS to know that someone will say something.

Most of all, I think it is a shame that such a young girl was forced into the center of this debate.

 

[Kacey]

This is a really tough one. There are a lot of things to be considered here. The big one is religious freedom and the right to openly practice your religion. But there are also issues of safety and fair competition to consider. Another issue is that most styles' uniforms are just that...Uniforms. Muslims are allowed to practice any religion they want, but in the military for example, they can't wear their head dress at work for obvious reasons. That is of course a much smaller issue, but I take offense when people wear miscolored shirts under their uniforms, or crazy colored headbands or loud jewelery....personal opinion, but I think it is disrespectful to the tradition - of course, getting into religous things....its a whole new ball game. She meant no disrespect, she had no idea she was doing anything wrong, and had no idea that anything would happen. Someone who wears a headband with a skull on it to a competition HAS to know that someone will say something.

Most of all, I think it is a shame that such a young girl was forced into the center of this debate.

I agree. From a safety perspective, I would be concerned about the hijab as well... on the other hand, if the child regularly wears a hijab, then from a self-defense perspective, she needs to know how to defend herself while wearing it. However, if the rules of the tournament specified some type of standard uniform, then it was incumbent on her instructor and/or the tournament director to let people know before the tournament that such a rule existed. If the rules of the tournament did not specify a standard uniform, or did not specifically ban head scarves... I don't know. I will say that I would not want to be the referee or tournament director who had to make that decision, if the rules were not specific on that point.

 

[tellner]

There are two women in our Silat class who wear headscarves. Neither of them has ever had any problem, and there have been no safety issues. It's not something sharp that can cut or scrape a person. Worn in any of the usual styles there isn't a choking hazard. The challenge is more keeping it together when things get energetic.

Plenty of women in Muslim countries like Indonesia and a number of groups of Christian nuns have done very strenuous martial arts while wearing soft headgear. I haven't heard of any serious issues so far.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Was the person correct in making the call? If he was basing this off the rules and regulations of Judo which he says than yes he was correct.
As he said it was not a religious call but based on rules and everyone's safety. I would think if you are going in a match where you are being thrown or throwing, the item could come off and though unlikely someone could trip on it. I suppose the same case could be made wearing eye glasses during a Judo match. The point is safety first.

 

[pstarr]

Yes - I agree with wearing absolutely no jewelry, head scarves, or any of that sort of thing in competition. If the competitor balks, he/she can go elsewhere... just my two yen.

 

[searcher]

It is only discrimination if they single out that single item or group. As long as they show no difference to one group or the other, she is not right. But if they do single out Muslims or some other group, then it is def discrimination. Not to difficult to discern, but always a touchy situation.

 

[tellner]

Why so much self-righteous legalism here?

Yes, there are rules. They are supposed to be for reasons like safety or the dignity of the event. What they are being used for here is a club for bludgeoning the participants. Hijab is not jewelry. It's not dangerous. It's not a decoration. It's an essential part of her modesty. If a girl is religious it's roughly equivalent to "You have to compete with your **** hanging out. I don't care if you usually wear a bra and a shirt. The Rules are the Rules. If we don't see your boobs you don't get to play."

You might say that she has to. And you can pat yourself on the back for not caving into the PC forces that pander to the towel heads. I suppose it's like "Freedom Fries", "Liberty Cabbage" and people kicking dachshunds (but not German Shepherds) during WWI and II.

Are you really so petty and cruel? Does your hatred for Muslims - I know that at least two of you have one no matter how mucy you deny it - really require that you be cruel to little girls and force them to choose between decency and playing sports?

 

[Kacey]

I never claimed that hijab was jewelry or on a par with jewelry - but I have been to tournaments that prohibited any type of scarf or bandanna that hung past a certain point, as a safety issue, because people had occasionally caught their feet in the loose ends, with sometimes painful results - although that's pretty much gone away as headgear has become mandatory, and the ends of any scarf or bandanna can be tucked safely away.

I've never had a Muslim student who was sufficiently observant to wear a hijab - but I have had Orthodox Jewish students who were sufficiently observant to cover their heads at all times. For them, the rule banning hats in the dojang as disrespectful was eliminated, as it was a totally different reason than others who wore hats inside; in fact, they often wore baseball caps over their kippah, as caps were less likely to fall off, and the metal clips they used to hold the kippah in place were a safety issue, much more than the brim of a baseball cap - especially as they weren't all that effective, and would fall out during sparring matches and tuls, and then get stepped on, which was painful in itself, and sometimes led to people twisting ankles, falling down, or otherwise hurting themselves on the clips. No one ever had a problem with it that I was aware of, in class or at tournaments; in fact, the BB testing that was regularly held on a Saturday was moved to a Sunday to accommodate one of them.

 

[tshadowchaser]

In a judo tournament I feel that a hijab might be dangerous to the one wearing it. In a karate tournament with all the protective gear (including head gear) I see no problem.
Seems like it would be a tournament directors place to make the final decision on this. I would hope that all such decisions where made only for the safety of the participants.

 

[still learning]

Hello, When "religion" gets involved with JUDO rules? ....this will make things worst in the future for all contestants.

The wearing of the hijib....is not a part of the tournament uniform rules...and it she is allow to wear that...than ALL CONTESTANTS WILL BE ALLOW TO WEAR ANYTHING ELSE TO0...and claim it is a part of there religion! NO END here!

As far as for visitors or parents...in the audience this is OK.

Fighting is consider "taboo" in lots of religions? ....is JUDO a figting art?

Rules are made my man...man can always change the rules?

Rules were to make things as fair as possible for everyone too!

The "hijab" in this case has nothing to do with religion rights...has to do more with the wearing of uniforms rules in this tournament!

She had a choice.....NO one should force others to obey there religion in a case like this! ..for this JUDO tournament!

Muslins can always run there own tournaments and make whatever rules they want to!

Separation from Religion and Martial art tournament rules is a RIGHT!

Aloha ( America is falling apart....because the sparations...are getting smaller and smaller....)

 

[MBuzzy]

In a judo tournament I feel that a hijab might be dangerous to the one wearing it. In a karate tournament with all the protective gear (including head gear) I see no problem.
Seems like it would be a tournament directors place to make the final decision on this. I would hope that all such decisions where made only for the safety of the participants.

This is a great point....the biggest problem is not to others, but to the person wearing it. A few people have said that in real situations, the hardest thing is to keep it on when things get energetic. If something like that falls down around your neck and you get thrown, it can be a big hazard.
If there is other head gear on keeping it place, I see no safety issue, but in the end, TShadow is right....It is the tournament director's call, for whatever reason it may be. Idealy it should be for safety or for respect matters, but in a private organization, the tournament director should make the call.

 

[stone_dragone]

Whether or not there have been any problems in the past regarding who wore what headgear during training is not the issue.

Separation of "religion and competition" or "religion and martial arts" or even "religion and fashion" isn't the issue.

The simple black and white issue regards what the rules said about wearing scarves, head coverings or jewelry. If the rules said no, then they said no. It shouldn't be open to discussion at the time. If this is the case (for whatever reason cited - safety, uniformity, etc), the young lady's instructors and coaches failed her miserably and set her up for failure and heartbreak.

Now for the grey of the issue, which seems to be what more people are discussing here...is the rule right and just. Personally I think that the rule ought to be changed, but that's not my call. If it is an important enough issue to members of the Judo community in general and the Canadian Judo community specifically, then they ought to bring it up with the sanctioning organization.

Here is the contact information for the Judo Manitoba committees. Right, wrong or indifferent, by choosing to compete in a tournament you agree to follow the rules of that tournament, not pick and choose which rules you agree with or not.

Thats one of the reason I generally don't do competitions anymore.

My .02

 

[FearlessFreep]

Yeah, I kick people in the groin all the time in competition. It's against the rules but that rule is wrong and just discriminates against those of us who train to kick to the groin

 

[Sukerkin]

It's not often that one of Tellner's replies has me pondering whether I agree with him or not.

On the one hand, I can accept that for the student in question, it would seem as if she were being made to compete indecently dressed. That is not really acceptable for the individual so constrained.

On the other, I have come to see in recent times that discrimination is a one-edged sword that (in what is publically reported) seems to cut at only those social norms and cultural beliefs that I grew up within. So I can understand when some people get quite irate and belligerant about it when it seems that 'yet another' example of what is mandated for one group is 'let slide' for another (or, if it is not, then it is an outrageous infringement of their rights).

Where the balance lies, is as always, somewhere in the middle. A common sense compromise reached with a level head and intelligence.

Does the hijab represent either a threat to safety or an affront to public dignity? If not and if the organisers know before hand, then I'm sure that a short statement as to why such-and-such is not wearing 'standard' garb would be more than sufficient for most. As it happens, it seems that in this case the decision maker was caught 'on the hop' and maybe jumped what is now being seen as the wrong way.

It happens. If you're on the wrong side of it then the best you can do is explain the position and refuse to cooperate if you believe the action to be trully beyond the pale.

It's happened to me in fact, when I was very young. My parents were of a small and tightly regulated religious group, widely unknown back then (now well known and the subject of comedy routines). One of the strong tenets of that faith, somewhat akin to the muslim ideal, is that no form of idolatory is sanctioned, be that the Cross, Jesus, singing hymns of other faiths et al.

In those days, attending Christian assembly was mandatory in schools and I was the first in our area to reach High School age, so it was a big shock to me when I was told that I had to attend Assembly and sing hymns. Obviously, I refused, explaining why. Result? A visit to the headmaster for corporal discipline.

Long rambling story to make my point - the teacher jumped 'the wrong way' when faced with a situation he didn't expect. Because of that 'surprise factor' I don't hold the teacher at fault per se (or at least I dont these days ). It was sorted out later after a visit to the school by my father and I got an apology (but that didn't make me forget that unjust caning ... as you can tell 'cause I still rankle at it now :lol:!).

Same thing with the chap in the OP. With more time to consider a different decison might have been made. So let's not be so quick to judge.

 

[Tez3]

I think common sense has to rule about wearing scarves. As someone has already pointed out wearing one while grappling I think could be dangerous while I don't see a problem in stand up sparring. We train in tshirts and Gi bottoms and while grappling I've seen quite a few times people being choked by their tshirts, in one case the guy was swallowing part of his.You can't say to us we have to be bare chested for safety though as the women wouldn't appreciate it, not just for modesty reasons but because of the necessity to wear a chest guard.A scarf I think would be similarly dangerous.

I think perhaps a sensible solution for women who want to cover their hair in judo/grappling type competitions would be for them to be allowed to wear the type of cap they wear in wrestling competitions, the type that covers all their head.. This would be practical, safe and modest.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I see no reason why someone should not be able to wear a hajib during judo or really any martial arts training. I wear a bandana 1/2 of the time and it has never affected my training in any way. (it may effect an opponent as I look meaner in a bandana

) Jewelry is a no brainer as it can be dangerous to everyone but scarves, bandanas, hajib are not really dangerous to anyone when practicing or competing in any martial art or sport.

 

[jks9199]

I see no reason why someone should not be able to wear a hajib during judo or really any martial arts training. I wear a bandana 1/2 of the time and it has never affected my training in any way. (it may effect an opponent as I look meaner in a bandana

) Jewelry is a no brainer as it can be dangerous to everyone but scarves, bandanas, hajib are not really dangerous to anyone when practicing or competing in any martial art or sport.

I'm somewhere in the middle.

I respect her religious practice, but I'm not certain that at least some forms of hajib would be a safety concern for the officials. It would help if I knew what this particular young lady's hajib looked like; I've seen some that aren't much different than a bandana -- and others that are much longer, much bulkier, and much more likely to be a problem.

I think that this is something that tournament directors and rules comittees need to address ahead of time, probably with input from various religious leaders. I'm sure that there's a compromise available, if there's an effort made ahead of time.

But... my cynical side can't help but notice that this is the second time that a martial arts group in the same general area (if I recall correctly) had this issue. The cynical voice in my head is pondering if maybe someone isn't pushing an agenda, using these young ladies.

 

[Doc_Jude]

There are two women in our Silat class who wear headscarves. Neither of them has ever had any problem, and there have been no safety issues. It's not something sharp that can cut or scrape a person. Worn in any of the usual styles there isn't a choking hazard. The challenge is more keeping it together when things get energetic.

Plenty of women in Muslim countries like Indonesia and a number of groups of Christian nuns have done very strenuous martial arts while wearing soft headgear. I haven't heard of any serious issues so far.

I agree. If the regulations of the association running the tournament said it was for safety reasons, then they need to demonstrate that those concerns are valid or the regs/bylaws need to be reexamined and/or removed.

 

[Doc_Jude]

But... my cynical side can't help but notice that this is the second time that a martial arts group in the same general area (if I recall correctly) had this issue. The cynical voice in my head is pondering if maybe someone isn't pushing an agenda, using these young ladies.

It wouldn't be the first time. Of course, just because one party has an ulterior motive, that doesn't negate the valid concerns of the athletes in question.