Its about the journey not the destination

[PhotonGuy]

If you were to ask me these questions as your instructor, I would be disappointed, because I would have already taught you how to do those things, and we would have trained them together many many times over. I would expect you to understand and be able to visualise what a round kick should look like based on that training, and make your own efforts toward improving it. If you were for example too tense, I'd have told you that many times during our training. You wouldn't need to ask what to work on. You would just need to crack on and practice.

I see what you mean but if you were to tell me that I was too tense with my round kick I would work on making it looser, more relaxed. After some training I might ask you how Im doing since I want to see from the instructor's perspective how Im coming along with it. Its good to get instructor feedback. I also might ask if the round kick was good enough to pass on a test since the instructor sets the standards and would therefore know if my technique meets them.

If you a) let yourself and b)your instructor lets you, get to first dan with a dodgy round kick, then something has failed in a) the training and b) the teaching.

As I posted my friend did not get to 1st dan until he adequately improved his round kick. I don't see the failure on his part since all he did was what any student would have to do who wants to advance, he asked for the test form. It was than that the Sensei told him to work on his round kick. As for what was going through the student's mind at the time I don't know. Maybe he knew his round kick was lacking and had already been working on it but he didn't know that it still wasn't good enough to meet the Sensei's standards for black belt. This much is true though, the Sensei didn't wave a magic wand and automatically make the student's round kick better, the student made the round kick better himself by working on it. The student did end up testing and passing the next time because by then he had gotten his round kick up to the Sensei's standards and it was done through the student's own good hard work. So it was the student had to do the work not anybody else but the student alone so I don't see how that's spoon feeding.

Maybe it is too much focus on belt progress and testing, and not enough focus on actual training.

You're not going to get the belt without the training so if you want the belt you will have to focus on the training.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Again you make goal setting to be a thing of immaturity. And Other than prose I am not sure that is a realistic argument.

There is nothing wrong with goal setting. Im and American and although you will find exceptions, as a general rule Americans are very goal oriented and that's much of why America has developed into the great country it is.

Again, I am not suggesting not making progress or not moving forward.

Just focusing on what is real: the present.

You should focus on the present but its also important to look to the future, that is part of what goal setting is all about.

No problem with goal setting. No problem with having a goal. The belt being the goal is the problem.

Than you don't have to have getting a belt as your goal, not everybody does.

 

[Gnarlie]

I see what you mean but if you were to tell me that I was too tense with my round kick I would work on making it looser, more relaxed. After some training I might ask you how Im doing since I want to see from the instructor's perspective how Im coming along with it. Its good to get instructor feedback. I also might ask if the round kick was good enough to pass on a test since the instructor sets the standards and would therefore know if my technique meets them.

How about putting this another way: if you need to ask, it is not good enough. No problem with asking for and giving feedback, but that particular question "Is it good enough to pass the test?", would only be answered with "Well what do you think?"

As I posted my friend did not get to 1st dan until he adequately improved his round kick. I don't see the failure on his part since all he did was what any student would have to do who wants to advance, he asked for the test form. It was than that the Sensei told him to work on his round kick. As for what was going through the student's mind at the time I don't know. Maybe he knew his round kick was lacking and had already been working on it but he didn't know that it still wasn't good enough to meet the Sensei's standards for black belt. This much is true though, the Sensei didn't wave a magic wand and automatically make the student's round kick better, the student made the round kick better himself by working on it. The student did end up testing and passing the next time because by then he had gotten his round kick up to the Sensei's standards and it was done through the student's own good hard work. So it was the student had to do the work not anybody else but the student alone so I don't see how that's spoon feeding.

Spoon feeding because the student should know by that point what the kick looks like and have practiced and be able to perform it to a degree where they are confident enough that they do not need to ask the question "Is it good enough". He shouldn't have taken the form if he needed to ask the question.

You're not going to get the belt without the training so if you want the belt you will have to focus on the training.

Exactly. Only, where I am coming from, the training and ultimately its results are immeasurably more important than the bit of cloth.

 

[Gnarlie]

There is nothing wrong with goal setting. Im and American and although you will find exceptions, as a general rule Americans are very goal oriented and that's much of why America has developed into the great country it is.

Also one of the reasons why martial arts has become so commercialised in the US.

You should focus on the present but its also important to look to the future, that is part of what goal setting is all about.

Whatever future you may visualise cannot be reached without focusing on the here and now. Arts that feature "Do" are all about the here and now. That is the point.

Than you don't have to have getting a belt as your goal, not everybody does.

I don't, and people who do are in my view completely missing the point of training. Often they are the same people who are unable to apply and improvise using their martial skills in my experience. It is not to be learned like a parrot with the aim of getting the next belt. It is to be studied, mulled over, digested, picked apart, thrown out, reintroduced, rehashed, experimented with, pared down, developed, fleshed out, supported, etc.

Martial arts is not at its core "do this then do that. If he does this, then do that". It is what you make it, and making it your own and making it practical takes time and real focus on the present.

You can rush through belts as goal oriented as you like, but your skills will not be on par with someone who studies and develops the art to work for them.

 

[PhotonGuy]

How about putting this another way: if you need to ask, it is not good enough. No problem with asking for and giving feedback, but that particular question "Is it good enough to pass the test?", would only be answered with "Well what do you think?"

I might think my technique is good enough but its the instructor who knows best. And besides, even if I know how good my technique is I don't know if they will meet the instructor's standards since the instructor sets the standards. That's where asking comes in. So if you ask me what I think I would say you set the standards so you would know best.

Spoon feeding because the student should know by that point what the kick looks like and have practiced and be able to perform it to a degree where they are confident enough that they do not need to ask the question "Is it good enough". He shouldn't have taken the form if he needed to ask the question.

The student didn't ask any questions about the kick, he just asked for the form and the Sensei told him to work on his round kick. He didn't get the form until after he got his kick up to par.

Exactly. Only, where I am coming from, the training and ultimately its results are immeasurably more important than the bit of cloth.

One of the results is the bit of cloth or at least knowing that you've met the standards set for getting the piece of cloth wherever you get it.

If you say just getting a belt isn't a goal you would have neither would I. If my only goal was to get a belt I would go buy one for about $5.00 but rather, my specific goal was getting a black belt at the JKC. Getting a black belt at the JKC would certainly involve meeting the standards for getting it. At the JKC meeting the proper standards is mandatory for getting a black belt and that's how I would want it. I wouldn't want to get a "cheap" black belt my meeting shoddy standards but that's not a problem at the JKC because they don't set shoddy standards for black belt. Anywhere else I would be a white belt but that doesn't concern me. My goal was to get a black belt at the JKC by meeting the standards set there, my goal was to complete that challenge.

 

[pgsmith]

Also one of the reasons why martial arts has become so commercialised in the US.

Whatever future you may visualise cannot be reached without focusing on the here and now. Arts that feature "Do" are all about the here and now. That is the point.

I don't, and people who do are in my view completely missing the point of training. Often they are the same people who are unable to apply and improvise using their martial skills in my experience. It is not to be learned like a parrot with the aim of getting the next belt. It is to be studied, mulled over, digested, picked apart, thrown out, reintroduced, rehashed, experimented with, pared down, developed, fleshed out, supported, etc.

Martial arts is not at its core "do this then do that. If he does this, then do that". It is what you make it, and making it your own and making it practical takes time and real focus on the present.

You can rush through belts as goal oriented as you like, but your skills will not be on par with someone who studies and develops the art to work for them.

However, it is important to remember that your view is only ONE view. One of my instructors was fond of saying that there are as many reasons for practicing martial as their are people practicing martial arts. We all have different goals and reasons for practicing. If someone else's goals and reasons are different from yours, that doesn't necessarily make them wrong in their goals, only wrong for your goals. There is just as much of a need for McDojos and Korner Karate studios as there is for traditional martial arts schools and effective fight schools. If there wasn't, they wouldn't exist.

Just a devil's advocate viewpoint to mull over.

 

[Gnarlie]

However, it is important to remember that your view is only ONE view. One of my instructors was fond of saying that there are as many reasons for practicing martial as their are people practicing martial arts. We all have different goals and reasons for practicing. If someone else's goals and reasons are different from yours, that doesn't necessarily make them wrong in their goals, only wrong for your goals. There is just as much of a need for McDojos and Korner Karate studios as there is for traditional martial arts schools and effective fight schools. If there wasn't, they wouldn't exist.

Just a devil's advocate viewpoint to mull over.

Completely agree. Although I reserve the right to my opinion that they are missing the point! [emoji3]

 

[PhotonGuy]

Also one of the reasons why martial arts has become so commercialised in the US.

Whatever future you may visualise cannot be reached without focusing on the here and now. Arts that feature "Do" are all about the here and now. That is the point.

You do need to focus on the here and now but you also need to visualize possible futures that might be the result of what you do in the hear and now, so you need to do both.

I don't, and people who do are in my view completely missing the point of training. Often they are the same people who are unable to apply and improvise using their martial skills in my experience. It is not to be learned like a parrot with the aim of getting the next belt. It is to be studied, mulled over, digested, picked apart, thrown out, reintroduced, rehashed, experimented with, pared down, developed, fleshed out, supported, etc.

Martial arts is not at its core "do this then do that. If he does this, then do that". It is what you make it, and making it your own and making it practical takes time and real focus on the present.

You can rush through belts as goal oriented as you like, but your skills will not be on par with someone who studies and develops the art to work for them.

The fact of the matter is, if you run a dojo that uses belt ranks its inevitable that some students will have the goal of getting a certain belt or belts. The only way to not have any students with such a goal is to not have belt ranks in the first place. Not all places use belt ranks and this is just an observation of mine but based on what you've said on this board, if you run a place of your own you might want to run it like that, without belt ranks.

 

[PhotonGuy]

However, it is important to remember that your view is only ONE view. One of my instructors was fond of saying that there are as many reasons for practicing martial as their are people practicing martial arts. We all have different goals and reasons for practicing.

Exactly, and that's why I think its important for an instructor to know why a student is there in the first place. Some instructors, actually this is quite common, for an instructor to try to motivate a student to practice what they're taught and train hard by saying stuff such as, "You want to get your black belt, don't you?" Maybe the student doesn't care about a black belt, or any belt for that matter. Maybe the student is taking up martial arts to get in good shape or lose weight. I once read a magazine article that addressed this. In that case the instructor would motivate the student much more by saying stuff such as, "By doing this drill you are burning off this many calories, ect." So its important for instructors to know why students are going into the martial arts and what they hope to get out of it, that way they can motivate them much more effectively.

If someone else's goals and reasons are different from yours, that doesn't necessarily make them wrong in their goals, only wrong for your goals.

I've been pointing that out too. Although its quite obvious, its been shown on this board that there are people that have different goals than mine and vice versa. I respect that but to discuss a strategy for obtaining my goals would be pointless if its with somebody who doesn't have the same goals since stuff I say would not apply to them and vice versa.

There is just as much of a need for McDojos and Korner Karate studios as there is for traditional martial arts schools and effective fight schools. If there wasn't, they wouldn't exist.

The McDojos do serve a good purpose, they act as filters in that students who are satisfied with going to McDojos can go there and therefore they won't be taking up space in the real martial arts places.

 

[Transk53]

I've been pointing that out too. Although its quite obvious, its been shown on this board that there are people that have different goals than mine and vice versa. I respect that but to discuss a strategy for obtaining my goals would be pointless if its with somebody who doesn't have the same goals since stuff I say would not apply to them and vice versa.

What are you're goals then?

 

[PhotonGuy]

What are you're goals then?

For my goal in the past see my post at #65 as for my goal right now is to just keep training and to keep getting better.

 

[Transk53]

For my goal in the past see my post at #65 as for my goal right now is to just keep training and to keep getting better.

Start learning then. Keep you're core, but incorporate otherwise

 

[Tony Dismukes]

We do a 12 week camp before a fight to get the student in absolute tip top nick for what can be a very hard test.

What do you think would be the merit of approaching a grading in the same manner?

I don't think I'd care much for that approach myself. The fight camp is meant to get a fighter to the current peak performance they are capable of for a short time. I prefer to think of rank as indicating a student's consistent day-to-day performance rather than their peak capability. (This is also why I'm not a big fan of belt testing in general.)

 

[PhotonGuy]

So anyway, concerning some of the stuff discussed earlier about proper stuff to ask an instructor or coach or whatnot. I used to be a competitive swimmer. Once a year they had this special event called the North Meet. In order to swim in the North Meet you had to qualify. You qualified by beating a certain time, you had to swim fast enough to beat a specific entry time and then you would be allowed to swim in the North Meet. Now, how would you know the time you had to beat? By asking your coach. Asking your coach the time you had to beat to go to the North Meet was what any swimmer would do who wanted to go. Was asking the time you had to beat disrespectful? Would the coach be spoon feeding the swimmer by telling them the time they had to beat? In both cases, at least from the viewpoint of the swimmers and coach the answer was no. I see nothing disrespectful about asking what you need to do to achieve something whether its going to the North Meet or getting a belt or whatever and I don't see it as spoon feeding to be told what you need to do to achieve whatever your goal is. In order to reach a goal you've got to know what you need to do to get it and the way you find out is often by asking somebody who would know such as a coach or instructor.

As it was there were some swimmers who didn't care to go to the North Meet. Even some swimmers who could qualify simply had no desire to go to the North Meet, it just didn't appeal to them. For those swimmers, we respected that but the stuff I mentioned, asking the coach the time they needed to beat and so forth just wouldn't apply to them since going to the North Meet just wasn't their thing.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I don't think I'd care much for that approach myself. The fight camp is meant to get a fighter to the current peak performance they are capable of for a short time. I prefer to think of rank as indicating a student's consistent day-to-day performance rather than their peak capability. (This is also why I'm not a big fan of belt testing in general.)

I see what you mean and I agree. Fight camp can be good for somebody training for competition such as the UFC or a boxer training for a match, but its not something that should be used for belt tests. A belt test, at least the way its done at the places I've been to, is based on a student's accumulated knowledge and skill not a one time peak performance.

 

[ballen0351]

So anyway, concerning some of the stuff discussed earlier about proper stuff to ask an instructor or coach or whatnot. I used to be a competitive swimmer. Once a year they had this special event called the North Meet. In order to swim in the North Meet you had to qualify. You qualified by beating a certain time, you had to swim fast enough to beat a specific entry time and then you would be allowed to swim in the North Meet. Now, how would you know the time you had to beat? By asking your coach. Asking your coach the time you had to beat to go to the North Meet was what any swimmer would do who wanted to go. Was asking the time you had to beat disrespectful? Would the coach be spoon feeding the swimmer by telling them the time they had to beat? In both cases, at least from the viewpoint of the swimmers and coach the answer was no. I see nothing disrespectful about asking what you need to do to achieve something whether its going to the North Meet or getting a belt or whatever and I don't see it as spoon feeding to be told what you need to do to achieve whatever your goal is. In order to reach a goal you've got to know what you need to do to get it and the way you find out is often by asking somebody who would know such as a coach or instructor.

As it was there were some swimmers who didn't care to go to the North Meet. Even some swimmers who could qualify simply had no desire to go to the North Meet, it just didn't appeal to them. For those swimmers, we respected that but the stuff I mentioned, asking the coach the time they needed to beat and so forth just wouldn't apply to them since going to the North Meet just wasn't their thing.

My kids swim. We have states and nationals with a qualifying times to enter. My kids coach won't tell anyone the times needed. They are told just swim your best and stop worrying about the times. Stop thinking and swim

 

[Tez3]

Now, how would you know the time you had to beat? By asking your coach

The qualifying times for things such as this are either set by the organisers or the governing body. This means you can ask them, look at their entry forms, look online etc, the coach won't be the only one who knows the qualifying time. I imagine however in most cases it will be as Ballen says, the coach tells them to swim and they do then he decides what comps they go in for, if they do. You are paying the coach and he's giving the best instruction and coaching he can.

 

[KenpoDave]

"It's about the journey, no the destination."

Unless there is no destination. Then it becomes about finding a destination. It is only when the destination is reached that the importance of the journey is realized.

 

[PhotonGuy]

My kids swim. We have states and nationals with a qualifying times to enter. My kids coach won't tell anyone the times needed. They are told just swim your best and stop worrying about the times. Stop thinking and swim

Hmmm they must do it differently. When we wanted to go to meets that that had qualifying times that we wanted to go to, we always knew the times we needed to get.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The qualifying times for things such as this are either set by the organisers or the governing body. This means you can ask them, look at their entry forms, look online etc, the coach won't be the only one who knows the qualifying time. I imagine however in most cases it will be as Ballen says, the coach tells them to swim and they do then he decides what comps they go in for, if they do. You are paying the coach and he's giving the best instruction and coaching he can.

Yes you can look at the forms or online but we would always get that information from our coaches, or from other swimmers. A swimmer should swim and follow the instruction of the coach but it also makes sense to know the times you have to beat, and on our team, good instruction usually included telling a swimmer the time they needed to beat to go to a meet, if the swimmer asked.