ITF and the WTF

[terryl965]

Connection. What do you feel is the connection between ITF and WTF and what would be the advantage of both being connected to the Kukkiwon?

 

[exile]

Connection. What do you feel is the connection between ITF and WTF and what would be the advantage of both being connected to the Kukkiwon?

Terry---I've only trained in a WTF style, and that's only nominally---my lineage, through my instructor to Greg Fears and back to Master Joon Pye Choi, is Song Moo Kwan, a very conservative Shotokan-based style, with very little in common with current KKW standards. So this may be kind of skewed. But probably my version of TKD is a good deal more like WTF/KKW than like ITF, so the following comparison might be useful. I've been looking in detail at Stuart Anslow's analysis of boon hae (= bunkai, only he believes that `hae sul' is closer to the sense of bunkai as understood in Japanese/Okinawan kata analysis than the literal cognate boon hae is) for the ITF tuls---plan to post something about it in the next week or so, since Kacey and a couple of other people were interested in the book and wondering if it were worth shelling out the bucks for---and he gives a nice summary of some of the technical differernces between ITF TKD on the one hand and Shotokan on the other which therefore have some implications for the difference btween ITF and my loosely KKW style. So in the following I'm basing the comparison on Anslow's technical specs for ITF:

*Stances: It looks like the ITF stances are somewhat deeper than the analogous WTF stances (though the SMK stances are lower, at least as low as the Shotokan stances. The transition from stance to stance via the `sine-wave' motion that Gen. Choi seemed to make much of in his later work is a strictly ITF doctrine, so far as I know.

*Blocks The ITF blocks seem to involve much more in the way of circular motion than the WTF blocks---certainly more than the SMK blocks---do. The way I've been taught to block is much more linear linear than what Anslow displays for ITF. And the chambering is different as well: in SMK we chamber for middle outward blocks, say, deep under the arm, for down blocks above the shoulder, in preparation for largely straight-line movents out and down. The SMK `reinforced' outward block is much more like Shotokan than like ITF, and, from what I've seen in poomsae competition, the same is true of other WTF schools: the ITF double-hand reinforced block puts the secondary fist alongside the primary blocking arm, whereas the WTF styles have the front of the secondary fist pressed into the primary arm, from slight underneath. Finally, the ITF rising blocks minimize the arm rotation as the arm rises, whereas the rising blocks I do have major rotation so that the inner arm faces seriously outward at the top of the block, with the palm in the fist facing pretty much entirely away from the practitioner's face.

*Kicks The ITF turning kick seems to emphasize the ball of the foot as a striking surface; our turning kicks, in contrast, use the instep. Less emphasis on high kicks to head, and less exclusivity in competition scoring on kicking techniques alone; the ITF not only allows, but seems to encourage punching techniques, including head strikes, to a far greater extent than the WTF does (which is not at all, in effect!) though not as much as in Karate competition.

*Patterns Huge, well-known differences. The ITF rejects the Palgwes, Taegeuks and most if not all the WTF dan-level poomsae; its tuls were created by Gen. Choi and so far as I know, only ITF schools teach them.

Those are some of the differences that seem worth noting (though, as I will say again, and again, I might be wrong about some or all of this; I'm going by what Anslow, who has been an ITF dan rank holder for twelve years (now fourth dan) and has operated his own school for seven of those years, has itemized in setting forth the technical content of ITF TKD.

As far as advantages in the affiliation to KKW go... I don't really know what I think about that. As a rule, I'm not dead keen on imposed standardization, since one of the main ways we get progress in any sphere of activity is by trying out all the possibilities, letting them compete with each other and seeing what works and what doesn't. The gulf between the two major federations seems silly, in many respects, but on the whole I'd rather see more independence from KKW, rather than less. You'd better take those sentiments with a grain of salt, though, Terry---if it were up to me, we'd be back with the old Kwan system, and may the best Kwan (on any given day) win! :wink1:

 

[Spookey]

Dear All,

I will step away from the technical comparisons, and simply staight my feelings regarding the views of the two organizations.

General Choi wanted unity just as many of the WTF instructors wanted the same (because remember many of these men trained together and or where students of one another long ago).

Taekwon-Do, Taekwondo, Tae Kwon Do...

This word reflects far more than the Art of Kicking and Punching. Taekwondo was a term of unity. Multiple kwans attempting to unite for the common good. That is my Taekwondo!

If you havent already, read the foot note at the bottom of my every post!

TAEKWON!
Spooks

 

[Kacey]

Indeed... too bad his dream has gone so far awry. Perhaps we, in communicating on the 'net, and, if possible, in person, will some day reunite the kwans, or at least affiliate them more closely.

 

[exile]

I'd like to suggest another take on this. Why did Gen. Choi decamp for Canada and take the ITF with him, creating a vacuum that the WTF filled? Why do so many WTF schools reject the `Juche' hyung? These, and so many issues dividing TKD, arose from factors outside the art itself. Gen.Choi wanted to maintain contact with North Korea---he was born there, after all---and his unauthorized visit there was the start of his fall from grace with the South Korean government (and therefore the S. Korean TKD establishment, closely linked to the ruling military regime at the time). The major division within TKD is a small-scale image of the division between the two Koreas.

If you think about it, this is going to be a particularly difficult problem for TKD to overcome, because of all the MAs, it seems to me that TKD is the one which is most wholeheartedly marketed as an icon of a particular national identity. TKD was originally connected with the Korean military, and in two particularly savage wars, it was identified as part of the brutal toughness of the Korean soldier (check out Stuart Anslow's new book on TKD for documentation of the fear that TKD mastery and ruthless application, e.g. the battle of Tra Binh Dong, inspired in the Viet Cong during the Vietnamese war.) Subsequently it became one of the distinctive cultural treasures that South Korea has based its `face for the world to see' on; when I was in Seoul a few years ago, it was impossible to go anywhere or do anything without a reminder of TKD as a foundation of the national soul---the comfortable talk in Canada about hockey as a part of the Canadian identity doesn't even begin to compare with the fervor with which S. Korea identifies TKD as key to its spiritual foundation. I was told this by former graduate students of mine who are settled academics in the Korean university system and have never trained a day of TKD once they were out of grade school.

Given this almost unbearable symbolic weight, my personal guess is that ITF and WTF will never fuse into a single organization until North and South Korea reunify. Anyone want to give (or take) odds on how soon that is going to be?

 

[Kacey]

I'd like to suggest another take on this. Why did Gen. Choi decamp for Canada and take the ITF with him, creating a vacuum that the WTF filled?

He left Korea - north and south - for political reasons, and to provide a better future for his family - as did so many others who emingrated from Communist countries.

Why do so many WTF schools reject the `Juche' hyung?

Juche was an attempt to get ITF, rather than WTF, TKD into the Olympics, and was aimed squarely at North Korea; on the surface, "Juche" stands for the concept that man is the master of his destiny, but at a deeper level, it stands for a Communist ideal in which the state is the master. WTF schools are not the only ones to reject Juche; many ITF schools do as well, or make it optional, returning to Ko-Dang instead, the pattern which Juche replaced. There are people who make this decision for ideological reasons, based on the definition; there are also people who make this decision for more mundane reasons - Juche is a horribly hard pattern, especially if you have problems with your knees, while Ko-Dang (which is one of my favorite patterns) is much less physically challenging, while being much more technically challenging.

These, and so many issues dividing TKD, arose from factors outside the art itself. Gen.Choi wanted to maintain contact with North Korea---he was born there, after all---and his unauthorized visit there was the start of his fall from grace with the South Korean government (and therefore the S. Korean TKD establishment, closely linked to the ruling military regime at the time). The major division within TKD is a small-scale image of the division between the two Koreas.

Indeed. Nonetheless, Gen. Choi was a Korean patriot, who wanted, more than anything, for the north and south halves of Korea to reunite, creating the single Korea in which he was born. Unrealistic? Perhaps - it certainly did not happen within his lifetime. But dreams are necessary - in the oft-quoted statement by Robert Browning: "A man's reach should exceed his grasp; else what's a heaven for?"

If you think about it, this is going to be a particularly difficult problem for TKD to overcome, because of all the MAs, it seems to me that TKD is the one which is most wholeheartedly marketed as an icon of a particular national identity. TKD was originally connected with the Korean military, and in two particularly savage wars, it was identified as part of the brutal toughness of the Korean soldier (check out Stuart Anslow's new book on TKD for documentation of the fear that TKD mastery and ruthless application, e.g. the battle of Tra Binh Dong, inspired in the Viet Cong during the Vietnamese war.) Subsequently it became one of the distinctive cultural treasures that South Korea has based its `face for the world to see' on; when I was in Seoul a few years ago, it was impossible to go anywhere or do anything without a reminder of TKD as a foundation of the national soul---the comfortable talk in Canada about hockey as a part of the Canadian identity doesn't even begin to compare with the fervor with which S. Korea identifies TKD as key to its spiritual foundation. I was told this by former graduate students of mine who are settled academics in the Korean university system and have never trained a day of TKD once they were out of grade school.

No argument here.

Given this almost unbearable symbolic weight, my personal guess is that ITF and WTF will never fuse into a single organization until North and South Korea reunify. Anyone want to give (or take) odds on how soon that is going to be?

Soon? I doubt it. But to cease to work toward either reunification because it is unlikely to occur soon is not something I would choose - better to reach and fail, than to never reach at all. And fusion may not be the ultimate goal at this point - but peaceful coexistence is not outside the realm of possibility, if we all work together toward that end - open communication such as goes on here is a good start - and once peaceful coexistence is reached, the next step is the exchange of information, then cooperation, then affiliation - not fusion, but mutual exchange of ideas and techniques. Not soon, certainly - but I will not preclude the possibility that relations between the ITF and WTF will improve in the future, and move on from there. Instead, I will continue to share whatever knowledge I have with anyone who is interested in hearing it, in the hopes that not every member of one organization will see every member of the other in a negative light, based solely on their affiliation (or, in my case, former affiliation).

There are other reasons that reunification is unlikely in the near future - money is a key factor, as is the disintegration of the ITF shortly before and continuing (and accelerating) after the death of Gen. Choi. The ITF's strength, previously, was based on its unity, in contrast to the multiple kwans that exist within the WTF; that is no longer the case.

 

[exile]

Hi Kacey---good, I was hoping to get your take on this aspect of the ITF/WTF conflict/schism/[fill in your own idea of what the relationship is]. I know you do ITF and might well have a different angle on the split from the North American `mainstream' (= WTF) perspective...

He left Korea - north and south - for political reasons, and to provide a better future for his family - as did so many others who emingrated from Communist countries.]

Assuredly. But it's certainly true, isn't it, that his main problem with the Korean government was the perception that he had gone onto forbidden ground by visiting N. Korea during the days of intense hostility between the two sides on the divided peninsula? I've been told that relations between the US and the Soviet Union were positively warm compared with the hostility on both sides of the Korean DMZ during that era. My point was just that the split in TKD which began with Gen. Choi's emigration was a reflection of events, attitudes and especially fears in a larger political domain which continues to drive much of the internal political factionalism within TKD.

Juche was an attempt to get ITF, rather than WTF, TKD into the Olympics, and was aimed squarely at North Korea; on the surface, "Juche" stands for the concept that man is the master of his destiny, but at a deeper level, it stands for a Communist ideal in which the state is the master.

Right!---and I have read really horrible political tracts which allege that anyone who practices the Juche hyung is necessarily advocating Stalinism and is beneath contempt.

WTF schools are not the only ones to reject Juche; many ITF schools do as well, or make it optional, returning to Ko-Dang instead, the pattern which Juche replaced. There are people who make this decision for ideological reasons, based on the definition; there are also people who make this decision for more mundane reasons - Juche is a horribly hard pattern, especially if you have problems with your knees, while Ko-Dang (which is one of my favorite patterns) is much less physically challenging, while being much more technically challenging.

I don't know the Juche hyung at all, but I've heard that it's quite demanding physically. I've also heard that some ITF schools have rejected it as part of a policy to try to distance themsleves from any suspicion that ITF is necessarily the `official North Korean' version of TKD (much as labor unions in the 1950s would often include patriotic text in their official charters and in some cases, like the longshoremen, refuse to handle trade involving Communist suppliers or ports, in order to offset the McCarthyite charge that by advocating workers' rights and better wages and working conditions, unions were inherently pinko).

Indeed. Nonetheless, Gen. Choi was a Korean patriot, who wanted, more than anything, for the north and south halves of Korea to reunite, creating the single Korea in which he was born. Unrealistic? Perhaps - it certainly did not happen within his lifetime. But dreams are necessary - in the oft-quoted statement by Robert Browning: "A man's reach should exceed his grasp; else what's a heaven for?"

Sure, and I would probably go further---I suspect that the whole noise about disloyalty and collaboration that was raised against him at the time was to a large extent sponsored by military and political rivals of his who hoped to use it to gain an advantage in the continual infighting and jockying for advantage that all politics involves. I have sometimes thought that the main reason he left Korea must have been out of the devastating pain and---if it were me---anger that that campaign against him would have triggered in him. As you say, he was a patriot, doing what he thought was the right thing for the whole country, and here he was having his loyalty called into question after all he had done.

Soon? I doubt it. But to cease to work toward either reunification because it is unlikely to occur soon is not something I would choose - better to reach and fail, than to never reach at all. And fusion may not be the ultimate goal at this point - but peaceful coexistence is not outside the realm of possibility, if we all work together toward that end - open communication such as goes on here is a good start - and once peaceful coexistence is reached, the next step is the exchange of information, then cooperation, then affiliation - not fusion, but mutual exchange of ideas and techniques. Not soon, certainly - but I will not preclude the possibility that relations between the ITF and WTF will improve in the future, and move on from there.

No one of genuinely good will would hope for anything else, or rule out that possibility at the outset. Look at East and West Germany---problems, certainly, but it can happen. The idea of a progressive reduction in the level of ideological hostility and paranoia is one that a lot of people in South Korea certainly share. It's hard to tell about the North, because it's such a closed society... but one can hope, eh? It seems to me it's not a part of human nature to want to go on fighting forever...

Instead, I will continue to share whatever knowledge I have with anyone who is interested in hearing it, in the hopes that not every member of one organization will see every member of the other in a negative light, based solely on their affiliation (or, in my case, former affiliation).

There are other reasons that reunification is unlikely in the near future - money is a key factor, as is the disintegration of the ITF shortly before and continuing (and accelerating) after the death of Gen. Choi. The ITF's strength, previously, was based on its unity, in contrast to the multiple kwans that exist within the WTF; that is no longer the case.

Right again. I suspect though that there are still some major differences in the philosophy of technique and competition that would have to be ironed out. I'd be happy if there were some kind of rapproachment without necessarily a merging of the two sides... as I say, I actually like the fact that there are many differences among dojangs in what TKD is and how it should be practiced---diversity is good, and all approaches should be explored... as long as it's done in a cooperative way, with the good of the art as a whole always born in mind.

 

[terryl965]

Speaking of philosophy of techniques, what do you and Kacey see as the major obsticles in which we must get past to the possibility of a unity someday.

 

[matt.m]

Great Grandmaster Park taught the ITF forms of the Chong Ji line. However, Grandmaster Hildebrand learned the WTF taeguek poomse while serving in Vietnam.

I know in the Cape school they are taught all the taeguek line, chong ji, toi gye, and ge baek. However, at the St. Louis school where I train under GM Hildebrand we have to know the WTF and ITF poomse before testing.

I know vaguely about the histories behind the ITF and WTF and their major significances. I do know though that I believe in the importance of knowing both lines. Neither are good or bad they both are good in my opinion. I believe it makes a better tae kwon doist as well.

It is my belief that to not know the ITF forms is to take half the tae kwon do cirriculum away, it is part of tae kwon do history and holds major significance to what tae kwon do is.

Just my .02.

 

[terryl965]

Great Grandmaster Park taught the ITF forms of the Chong Ji line. However, Grandmaster Hildebrand learned the WTF taeguek poomse while serving in Vietnam.

I know in the Cape school they are taught all the taeguek line, chong ji, toi gye, and ge baek. However, at the St. Louis school where I train under GM Hildebrand we have to know the WTF and ITF poomse before testing.

I know vaguely about the histories behind the ITF and WTF and their major significances. I do know though that I believe in the importance of knowing both lines. Neither are good or bad they both are good in my opinion. I believe it makes a better tae kwon doist as well.

It is my belief that to not know the ITF forms is to take half the tae kwon do cirriculum away, it is part of tae kwon do history and holds major significance to what tae kwon do is.

Just my .02.

Very well said Matt, you are wise beyond your years.

 

[exile]

Speaking of philosophy of techniques, what do you and Kacey see as the major obsticles in which we must get past to the possibility of a unity someday.

Terry---I want to defer to Kacey on this, since she has a much better idea of just how much technical variety exists among ITF schools than I do. And my own view of the WTF is pretty non-mainstream---my instructor teaches the Pinan katas (oops, Pyung-Ahn hyungs, I mean :wink1 along with a number others of Okinawan/Japanese origin that were in use in the early kwan system (and, so I understand, still in use in other Song Moo Kwan schools).

I'll say this, though, just to get the ball rolling (i.e., present a target for Kacey to shoot at). I have the strong sense that some of the technical issues, like the way blocks should be chambered, the `sine-wave' stance business, the difference between WTF and ITF walking stances and so on, wouldn't really be a problem to... um, reunification, let's call it. If I had to guess, I'd suspect that the really serious differences would be associated with the driving goal of the WTF to make secure the Olympic status of TKD and its control over Olympic-style standards as reflected in scoring practice, as vs. the better-rounded ITF view of TKD, where (as I understand it) tul performance has equal status with sparring competition and the `foot tag' aspect of WTF is rejected in favor of a more complete toolkit of strikes (e.g., head punches as legal moves in ITF sparring). There's a deep difference here, backed up by money---Olympic-level TKD competition is big business and a matter of huge prestige to the S. Korean government (and to the S. Korean people too). Issues bearing on that would probably be among the thorniest.

And then there's the question of what to do with all those poomsae/hyungs/tuls. The fact that you can take any of them apart and find two- and three- move sequences that show up in many other patters, both WTF and ITF (with the same effective bunkai) is to my way of thinking the most important thing about them, but they now bear a huge political weight as well. In a unified TKD, what would be the fate of Gen. Choi's handwrought tuls...? Heaven only knows... Kacey, you want to come in on this (please)???!!!

 

[exile]

Great Grandmaster Park taught the ITF forms of the Chong Ji line. However, Grandmaster Hildebrand learned the WTF taeguek poomse while serving in Vietnam.

I know in the Cape school they are taught all the taeguek line, chong ji, toi gye, and ge baek. However, at the St. Louis school where I train under GM Hildebrand we have to know the WTF and ITF poomse before testing.

Whoa, Matt, you're lucky to be training at a place where they're open-minded enough to embrace both of the major branches of TKD!

I know vaguely about the histories behind the ITF and WTF and their major significances. I do know though that I believe in the importance of knowing both lines. Neither are good or bad they both are good in my opinion. I believe it makes a better tae kwon doist as well.

It is my belief that to not know the ITF forms is to take half the tae kwon do cirriculum away, it is part of tae kwon do history and holds major significance to what tae kwon do is.

Just my .02.

I completely agree with you, my friend, though I can't imagine living long enough to master that much material. The sticky question though is what is possible in practical terms... it's very much a political question that Terry is asking, and politics, as they say, is the art of the possible. It might be possible to finesse some of the technical differences, but others I suspect would be much harder to find a face-saving accomodation for... that's why I'd like to get Kacey's take on this as per my previous post, given her deep knowledge of the ITF as an advanced-dan instructor in that system.

 

[zDom]

What do you mean by `sine-wave' stances?

Does that describe the head coming up and back down between stances? OR the "half circle" step the foot makes when moving from the rear foot in one stance to the front foot in the next?

re: MSK doing both sets of forms: My MSK instructor required all the taekgueks, Chon Ji, Chung Moo, Gae-bek Yu Shin.

ITF forms between Chon Ji and Chung Moo were optional. As I was also studying HKD at the time I came up through the TKD ranks, I eventually dropped the optional ITF forms (at around blue belt) but very much enjoyed doing Chung Moo and Yu Shin (probably my two favorite forms). I believe practicing the ITF forms along with the WTF forms definately made me a better martial artist.

 

[exile]

What do you mean by `sine-wave' stances?

Does that describe the head coming up and back down between stances? OR the "half circle" step the foot makes when moving from the rear foot in one stance to the front foot in the next?

Hi zDom---I meant the whole body-rise during the forward move between stances in tul execution that Gen. Choi apparently introduced sometime in 1983, with the body dropping as the new stance is taken (typically coincident with delivery of some striking technique, often descriptively disguised as a `block'). Gen. Choi distinguished this relatively subtle move from something else he called the `saw-tooth wave' in the Encyclopaedia, but in recent years it seems that the interpretation of the `sine wave' that the General referred to (sometimes using the term `natural motion' to refer to it) has become fairly extreme in some quarters of the ITF, and actually conflated with the `saw tooth' pattern. In the March 2001 issue of Taekwon-do and Korean Martial Arts Anslow has a compact, dense article discussing the origins, interpretation, and `scientific mechanics' of the sine-wave trajectory of movement in the forms (the discussion of the basic physics involved has some problems, since both Anslow and Choi seem to believe that the expression

2
1/2 (mv )

defines `power', whereas it is the value for kinetic energy; power is force per unit time). Not everyone in ITF follows the extreme sine-wave form (which involves a drop before the rise and then another drop into the new stance). Check out the article---it's got a huge amount of information in a fairly small number of pages.

re: MSK doing both sets of forms: My MSK instructor required all the taekgueks, Chon Ji, Chung Moo, Gae-bek Yu Shin.

Again, that's terrific---I've heard that there there are some quarters of the ITF which essentially deny the relevance, possibly even the existence, of the WTF forms.

ITF forms between Chon Ji and Chung Moo were optional. As I was also studying HKD at the time I came up through the TKD ranks, I eventually dropped the optional ITF forms (at around blue belt) but very much enjoyed doing Chung Moo and Yu Shin (probably my two favorite forms). I believe practicing the ITF forms along with the WTF forms definately made me a better martial artist.

That has the ring of truth, for sure. Anslow gives sharp interpretations for Chon Ji and several other tuls, but not Chug Moo or Yu Shin---but he almost certainly will do, as he is working on the second book in the series and plans to publish a third after that---so I figure all of them will subject to his analysis by the end. I've been reading the first volume and hope to post something about it sometime during the next week, since it's something people here might be interested in.

 

[exile]

Sorry about getting the mathematical expression messed up in the previous post---the one that corresponds to 1/2(mv)v---the text formatter here isn't set up to handle equations too well...

 

[Kacey]

Sorry, I started to answer this... then the phone rang and I had to leave without finishing... so I'm going to try again. Thanks for putting me on the spot like this!

Terry---I want to defer to Kacey on this, since she has a much better idea of just how much technical variety exists among ITF schools than I do. And my own view of the WTF is pretty non-mainstream---my instructor teaches the Pinan katas (oops, Pyung-Ahn hyungs, I mean :wink1 along with a number others of Okinawan/Japanese origin that were in use in the early kwan system (and, so I understand, still in use in other Song Moo Kwan schools).

When I started TKD, I was in the USTF, which was one of only 2 organizations in the US which were members of the ITF (the other was KATU). Only people who were a member of one of those two organizations could participate in the ITF competitions at the international level, and only students of member organizations could test within the organization. People who left the USTF or KATU lost their ITF affiliation - for some a big deal, for other not - but it did generally cause people to stay in one of those two organizations. Since an ITF Internation Instructor must be the testing instructor for anyone testing to a rank of black belt who wants ITF certification (required for ITF competition) this caused people to stay, or, if they left, to not take students who wanted to continue with them. When I was a color belt, the differentiation between the ITF and the WTF was described to me this way: the ITF existed to promote technical consistency, and the WTF existed to promote sport TKD, that the technical details, testing requirements, and instructional methods varied much more widely in WTF classes. This turned out to be true, although the negative connotation attached to it turned out to be false. Certainly, there are some badly-run WTF dojangs out there; I would venture to guess that the percentage of badly-run ITF dojangs is probably about the same.

The key difference, I think, has to do with the fact that just one kwan exists within the ITF. In addition, Gen. Choi did something truly unusual at the time he did it - he published a book in the 1960s, The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do, at a time when many MA instructors kept their training secrets closely guarded, and taught them only a few priviledged students. This volume, and its later editions, provided an objective baseline of what techniques needed to be included, how they should be performed, the sequence in which they should be taught, and the time it should take to move from one rank to another, assuming a specific amount of training time per time period. Having this volume available helped change the mindset of practitioners and instructors - it was harder to drift because one had lost touch with one's instructor, and provided a reference source that had previously been unavailable. This shifted the focus from fighting/sparring proficiency alone to proficiency in a broader range of areas, of which sparring is only one. This is, I think, a key difference.

I'll say this, though, just to get the ball rolling (i.e., present a target for Kacey to shoot at).

I'm not going to shoot at you... kick maybe, but not shoot - I don't own a gun! :wink2:

I have the strong sense that some of the technical issues, like the way blocks should be chambered, the `sine-wave' stance business, the difference between WTF and ITF walking stances and so on, wouldn't really be a problem to... um, reunification, let's call it. If I had to guess, I'd suspect that the really serious differences would be associated with the driving goal of the WTF to make secure the Olympic status of TKD and its control over Olympic-style standards as reflected in scoring practice, as vs. the better-rounded ITF view of TKD, where (as I understand it) tul performance has equal status with sparring competition and the `foot tag' aspect of WTF is rejected in favor of a more complete toolkit of strikes (e.g., head punches as legal moves in ITF sparring).

You've already mentioned some of the differences between the ITF and the WTF, which, as I said, I think come from the availability of reference materials, in addition to the types of seminars that many masters and grandmasters provided for their organizations - Gen. Choi certainly did quite a few. I would agree that many WTF schools I have had contact with (although by no means all of them) place patterns (tuls) at a much lower level of importance than sparring of any variety - I've met many students who consider patterns to be something to be learned - and then forgotten - simply for the purpose of advancing to a higher rank. As you also noted, the target zone for free sparring is different in the ITF - it is, basically, the area between the belt and the base of the throat on the front of the torso, and anywhere on the head. All hand strikes and kicks may be used (standing and jumping), as long as they are aimed at a legal target area, and delivered with balance, power, and control. Illegal tools are anything other than hands and feet. Illegal techniques include throws, grabs, elbow strikes, and so on. Sweeps are allowed from red belt up. I've never quite understood why punches to the face were illegal in the WTF - does anyone know?

There's a deep difference here, backed up by money---Olympic-level TKD competition is big business and a matter of huge prestige to the S. Korean government (and to the S. Korean people too). Issues bearing on that would probably be among the thorniest.

This is, indeed, a key issue. Because Gen. Choi was born in a united Korea - if one that was under Japanese control at the time - it was his dream to see his country reunited. He remained emotionally attached to his birthplace, and, indeed, one of the splits in the ITF after his death occurred because he (supposedly - the accounts are mixed) willed the presidency of the ITF to a north Korean on his deathbed so that he could be buried in his homeland... and interesting concept for a supposedly democratic organization, but that's a topic for a different thread. Because of where Gen. Choi was born, he, and therefore the ITF, remained affiliated with North Korea - a significant problem for a variety of reasons. This was, in part, the reason why he moved the ITF headquarters to Vienna, and himself and his family to Canada. North Korea is desperately short of funds - and was before its recent actions caused it to face trade sanctions and possible embargoes. North Korea does not have the money to spend on TKD - although the portion of the ITF now headquartered there is desperate to expand and increase its income. With the ITF splintered into 3 major organizations, and former affiliates littering the landscape, its numbers have dropped precipitously, with no immediate end in sight. Until the ITF reorganizes and reunites, or at least finds a way for the parts to communicate (both the splinter organizations and the former affiliates) the WTF has little to be concerned with. This will almost certainly strengthen the WTF's hold on the Olympics, as much as the ITF (in all its pieces) would like that to change. North Korea simply does not have the money to spare, and neither do the other two major splinters, one in Canada, and one in Vienna.

And then there's the question of what to do with all those poomsae/hyungs/tuls. The fact that you can take any of them apart and find two- and three- move sequences that show up in many other patters, both WTF and ITF (with the same effective bunkai) is to my way of thinking the most important thing about them, but they now bear a huge political weight as well. In a unified TKD, what would be the fate of Gen. Choi's handwrought tuls...? Heaven only knows... Kacey, you want to come in on this (please)???!!!

I would hope (although this is pure speculation on my part) that some type of parallel curriculum could be used, with students being allowed to learn the other pieces if they chose, and with greater levels of crossover as one advanced in rank - so that beginners would be able to concentrate on one set of patterns and one method of performance, while by black belt one would begin to learn the patterns and technical details of the other piece(s) of the curriculum. As far as I can see, all of the kwans have their strengths and weakness, and all of them have students who would passionately protect them from dissolution, or even absorption - but over time, if upper-level students in all branches had to learn pieces from other kwans, then hopefully the best pieces would be incorporated into a greater whole, and the dross would be discarded. I would hope that none of the patterns would be lost in the process - some would be optional on one side, and some on the other, so that there would always people learning each as a primary set... but I'm not sure how to begin such a process, and I have even less concept of how to bring it about.

What do you mean by `sine-wave' stances?

Does that describe the head coming up and back down between stances? OR the "half circle" step the foot makes when moving from the rear foot in one stance to the front foot in the next?

Sine wave is the natural motion that occurs when one steps, and one's head moves up and down; it's often quite visible in boxers as they shift stances. Some years ago, I was at a seminar taught by Gen. Choi, at which he was trying to get people to move with this natural motion rather than stepping straight-legged - something that was encouraged by the "half-circle" step you describe. Any of you who are instructors will likely know that if you tell a senior to change a certain portion of their technique, the change will generally be swift; if you tell a junior, the junior will often nod, say "yes, sir" and continue to do whatever they were doing before, secure in the belief that they had made the desired change. This is what happened on day when Gen. Choi was teaching sine wave. As Gen. Choi discussed the concept of sine wave, he asked people to exaggerate it so that those behind the seniors could see what he was trying to explain. The seniors did so, and the juniors nodded, said "yes, sir!" very emphatically, and continued to move with their knees locked. So Gen. Choi repeated "Lower!!! Bend your knees! Lower stances!". The seniors lowered their stances further, exaggerating the up and down motion further still... the juniors nodded their heads, said "yes, sir" and continued to move with their knees locked. This went on until the seniors were all dropping at least a foot and then rising back up on each step, and the juniors were so tired that, finally, they began to bend their knees. Gen. Choi approved the change in the latter, and many of the seniors (who couldn't see Gen. Choi; he was in the middle of the group yelling at the juniors, so the seniors' backs were to him) took it to mean that they were performing correctly, and went back to their classes and taught their students an exaggerated and incorrect form of sine wave. In addition, many people looked at pictures of sine waves, with a dividing line in the exact middle of the wave, from top to bottom, as seen here:

when, in fact, the beginning of the motion was more toward the bottom, as seen here:

Sorry about the sizes... but you get the idea. In addition, the sine wave is not nearly as high and narrow as the one shown (I couldn't find an image I liked, and I don't have the skills to draw one), and varies with the technique being performed. This led to a great deal of confusion, and a fair amount of derision by people who saw sine wave being performed incorrectly and thought it was wrong... and it was. Sine wave is a natural motion - watch someone walk from the side and you'll see it - but it is subtle, and was never intended to be as exaggerated as some people made it; it was taught in an attempt to stop people from walking with their legs locked. The "half circle" previously discussed was being taught when I started, but was discarded as people began to bend their knees instead; the two don't work well together, and when I was taught the "half-circle", you brought your feet so close together it had a negative effect on your balance, which is why we stopped doing it - or, at least, why my sahbum quit teaching it.

I hope this made sense - I realize it's very long. Please feel free to ask questions, and I'll answer if I can...

 

[exile]

Kacey, this is brilliant! I gotta sit down with it and read it carefully (after going out to get some take-out 'cause none of us feels like cooking tonight), but this is just the kind of in-depth look at the issues from a perspective of real expertise that I was hoping for... will have to read, think about and absorb all this! Terrific thread, this is turning into...

 

[terryl965]

Kacey that was a brillant post sorry can't rep you for it, says I have to spead it around

 

[exile]

This is very substantial post with a ton of good information in it, Kacey. I like your idea of the parallel curriculum ideal, with all of the WTF and ITF forms available as resources for dojangs to mix and match in different combinations for different levels (and if I had my way, that mix would include the Pinan/Pyang-Ahn forms and some of the other Japanese patterns that have historical significance as part of the early kwan era curricula). Who knows---wierder and more wonderful things have come to pass in our lifetimes, so....?

But the particular thing that struck me the most in your message was this bit:

Sine wave is the natural motion that occurs when one steps, and one's head moves up and down; it's often quite visible in boxers as they shift stances. Some years ago, I was at a seminar taught by Gen. Choi, at which he was trying to get people to move with this natural motion rather than stepping straight-legged - something that was encouraged by the "half-circle" step you describe. Any of you who are instructors will likely know that if you tell a senior to change a certain portion of their technique, the change will generally be swift; if you tell a junior, the junior will often nod, say "yes, sir" and continue to do whatever they were doing before, secure in the belief that they had made the desired change. This is what happened on day when Gen. Choi was teaching sine wave. As Gen. Choi discussed the concept of sine wave, he asked people to exaggerate it so that those behind the seniors could see what he was trying to explain. The seniors did so, and the juniors nodded, said "yes, sir!" very emphatically, and continued to move with their knees locked. So Gen. Choi repeated "Lower!!! Bend your knees! Lower stances!". The seniors lowered their stances further, exaggerating the up and down motion further still... the juniors nodded their heads, said "yes, sir" and continued to move with their knees locked. This went on until the seniors were all dropping at least a foot and then rising back up on each step, and the juniors were so tired that, finally, they began to bend their knees. Gen. Choi approved the change in the latter, and many of the seniors (who couldn't see Gen. Choi; he was in the middle of the group yelling at the juniors, so the seniors' backs were to him) took it to mean that they were performing correctly, and went back to their classes and taught their students an exaggerated and incorrect form of sine wave....

This led to a great deal of confusion, and a fair amount of derision by people who saw sine wave being performed incorrectly and thought it was wrong... and it was. Sine wave is a natural motion - watch someone walk from the side and you'll see it - but it is subtle, and was never intended to be as exaggerated as some people made it; it was taught in an attempt to stop people from walking with their legs locked.

I'll say the same thing as I said about your post in connection with the restrictions on the spatial dimensions reflected in the ITF tuls: it's really sobering to realize just how `accidental' are the bases of some of these points of doctrine that have, at least in some quarters, become frozen in stone. The story about Gen. Choi's class explains perfectly something that would otherwise be kind of a mystery with people attributing some kind of deep meaning to it or shrugging and saying it's an immutable part of traditional KMA or whatever... but the actual reason appears to have been just one almost comical set of circumstances on one particular occasion where people just missed the crucial poinnt---that the exaggeration Gen. Choi was insisting on was simply a teaching device, which got morphed into a point of technical doctrine because of the mass confusion going on in the class. How many times has this happened in the MAs, with the result that we have distortions of technique built into our curricula that are hard to justify but which no one feels can be jettisoned---after all, isn't this the way GM X insisted it should be done??

There's a nice parallel in Alpine skiing technique. In the 1960s, the French team started blowing the Austrians off the mountains in all events, including the downhill, which the Austrians were supposed to own. The French used a technique called avalement, literally `swallowing', which involved retraction of the skiis under the racer---a move that you can get a feel for by imagining the skier encountering a big mogul at high speed. What do you do---hit the thing head on? Obviously no---you'd get creamed! Instead, you pull the skiis back under as you move up the bump, so that you upper body actually stays at the same height, and all the bump does is push the skis up towards your upper body, with your knees retracting like pistons. The French were doing this however on smooth ski slopes as they crossed the fall line of the hill, claiming that it enabled them to maintain better contact with the snow. Today we know that what they were doing was a very severe knee angulation that allowed them to carve their turns much better than the Austrians, keep a tighter and higher line, save time through the gates and thereby win. But the point is that in photos taken and reproduced in books by Georges Joubert, the coach of the French national team, and other avalement gurus, it looked like the racers were sitting back. And so a whole generation of skiers started sitting back on their skis, and using the backs of the ever-higher ski boots to leverage their way through turns (sit back wearing lower-height boots and your skis will take off and dump you on your butt every time).

What the cameras didn's show was that at the moment when the skiers appears to be sitting back, they actually were `unweighted' on the skis---their weight was being projected, not back, but laterally onto what would become the new outside ski. The appearance of sitting back was in effect an optical illusion (because the shots from the side completey masked the actual position of the skis with respect to the skier's upper body)---a fact which the ski publications eventually twigged to and tried to caution their readers about, but the damage had been done---and throughout the seventies, you could see plenty of skiers who looked like they were sitting on invisible rocking chairs, bouncing their way gracelessly down the hill under the impression that they were spitting images of Patrick Russel and Jean-Claude Killy. And that sitting-back style was even taught at certain ski hills... all a big, dumb misunderstanding of what a few famous photo sequences taken at a few big races were actually showing.

This sort of thing probably happens way more often than we'd like to believe. Kacey's stories are a good reminder that in MAs, a healthy skepticism and a demand for rational justification are necessary to avoid getting deep-sixed by technical distortions arising from what in end turn out to be MA urban legends.

 

[TraditionalTKD]

There currently is no relationship between ITF and WTF, nor should there be. For if you embrace Gen. Choi's organization, you embrace his philosophy. Aside from the technical differences (ITF-sine wave, more Shotokan inspired), the WTF made a concerted effort to grow and develop Tae Kwon Do according to traditional Korean thinking and philosophy. The ITF was the product of one man. The Kukkiwon/WTF is the work of many people and rooted in Korean tradition.
Aside from his habit of taking credit for other peoples' work, Choi made personal overtures to North Korea, despite the fact that the North has systematically starved its own people and has a megalomaniac as a dictator. What Choi considered patriotism, South Korea considers treason. He may have had deep affection for the region that gave birth to him, but the political reality is that his birthland was an oppressive communist country and he never faced up to that.
And as for embracing and practicing ITF and WTF poomse, you cannot be Democrat and Republican or Catholic and Protestant. You cannot practice ITF and WTF. Each has its own nuances, philosophy, and mindset. Pick one.