Isshinryu Variations

[rlp271]

Styles in Okinawan karate did not begin until after WWII, imitating the Japanese karate styles. Before that there were just instructors and they taught as they needed.

Isn't the date for styles emerging closer to the turn of the century (19th to 20th of course). Anko Itosu codified what he had learned, created the Pinan (Heian) Kata to make it more digestible, and that was transmitted to Gichin Funakoshi, who in turn transmitted it to Japan. In 1929 Chojun Miyagi took what he learned in China, what he learned from Higashionna, and named it Goju-Ryu.

It's true that the formal Japanese style of training and ranking didn't take hold until after WWII, which is why you get extremely fast rank progression among the original Marines. Prior to this, you had informal meetings in people's back yards. Each student was taught according to what their master wanted to concentrate on, and what he felt would best suit them.

@dancingalone: I'm not surprised that styles were codified, and it's not a bad thing, but we concentrate on it too much. We concentrate on what is "correct," but we forget that different people have different needs. Example from Isshinryu: Armstrong and his students, from what I've seen don't chamber their blocks. They come directly from the hip. For Armstrong, this was fine, he was a very large man. Someone smaller would probably have to use sabaki movements coupled with a parry to turn the "block" into a striking movement. Depends on your interpretation of something as simple as the basics. A problem occurs when there is a blind following and no understanding of what's being done. With the heavy Japanese influence post-WWII, I can see how this would happen with Okinawan Karate Kempo. Japanese society is conformist by nature. The old Japanese saying goes, "The nail that sticks out is hammered down." Anyone doing something radical would be considered wrong, and would be culled quickly. The Kempo jutsu in Okinawa would have to quickly conform to Japanese Karate-do if it wanted to survive.

@Mr. Mattocks: I've heard Mitchum's time spent in Okinawa happened over a 7 and a half year period. Originally, people said that he had trained in Okinawa for 7 and a half years, but his service record would show otherwise. He made 3 tours to Okinawa in that time, but I'm not sure what the actual total time training was. Many others went back as well, Advincula comes to mind, but I'm not sure what their ideas were about transmission. Strict transmission of source material is a very Japanese idea. As Mr. Smith pointed out, Shimabuku was Okinawan. He didn't write things down, he taught what he liked at the time, and let people run with it. I ran into an Isshinryu school, I want to say in Canada (I was very young), where they used the traditional corkscrew style punch. Were they wrong? Well, it depends on if Shimabuku was screwing around with it for a few weeks and someone picked it up 40 years ago. I think the whole idea of Isshinryu as a codified system was a concept brought about by the US Marines. It's great that they tried to create a standard, but they each did it on their own, in different places, with zero pier review. It would be interesting if you could get say every person who is presently an 8th, 9th, or 10th dan in the same room to truly codify the system, but because of politics and ego that situation would likely be :hb: at best.

 

[Victor Smith]

Shimabuku's teachings were really designed for his full time Okinawan students. When he accepted the American Marines many of those students left. In the early 1960's in his dojo Okinawan's were using the twisting punches and the American's were using the newer vertical striking. Shimabuku was making accomodations to try and keep the Okinawan's There is a record that he met with them to try and get them to return.

By 1964 he taught in Pittsburgh for 4-6 months (different sources cite different time) and the entire time he taught the Isshinryu system with twisting punches (apparently having reverted to the older way). In the early 90's I had a studenet from that Pittsburgh dojo train with us for a while. It was interesting seeing Isshinryu that way. By the late 60's I understand in the Western PA area various Isshinryu dojo would use twisting and/or vertical striking.

BTW there was extensive movie records made of Shimabuku's Pittsburgh time, but the school head has kept them private. The old isshinryu disease left everyone training their in contention and it's safe to say, as valuable as those movies are, they are lost for everyone forever.

Shimabuku said during his 1966 visit to the states he was so impressed his American students retained the vertical striking he was going to revert again and only teach that way from that point on. One of my instructors trained as a sho-dan in Agena 1972-73 and he never made reference to twisting punches.

IMO it's really irrelevant which punch you use it you train to understand your strikes potential and it works, that you're only using one is fine.

Isshinryu's problems all of course go back to it's founder becuase he obviously never really thought short term American students would keep practicing for the next 50 years. Not having the forsight or the intention of casting his 'system' in stone, he had no real controlling mechanism to fix Isshinryu in perpetuity. (and of course in the long run the Japanese styles that started the style business first, all in the end had many breakaway systems.

Real Isshinryu is very simple to define, they step on the floor and practice Isshinryu, period. The quibbling details are irrelevant, rank is irrelevant, time training with Shimabuku is irrelevant. Isshinryu everywhere took on it's own personal existence because each instructor choose to keep it so.

Real Isshinryu is simply your fist meeting your attacker's face and they drop. That's real.

pleasantly,

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Shimabuku said during his 1966 visit to the states he was so impressed his American students retained the vertical striking he was going to revert again and only teach that way from that point on. One of my instructors trained as a sho-dan in Agena 1972-73 and he never made reference to twisting punches.

This is something that has consistently impressed me about the American side of Isshin-Ryu. Students from Okinawa came back the USA and kept at it diligently. Clearly it left a powerful mark on them. Shimabuku must have been some instructor. How many people do we all know who say "Karate? Yeah, I studied (name some art) when I was a kid, for awhile." People try it, and even if they like it, most move on. How many adopt it as a lifelong passion and devote themselves to doing as closely as they can to how they were taught it?

I mean no disrespect to any other Ryu, but I have noticed that many have few compunctions about changing their kata, their style, or whatever else they feel like changing as they feel it necessary. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but I have noticed that Isshin-Ryu tends not to be like that. The fact that there are serious splits and arguments over small details tells me that people consider those details important and not superfluous. It doesn't mean they are important, but it is interesting that so many consider them so; perhaps they are important after all.

My sensei tells us that when Master Harrill and Mitchum met up after so many years apart, they were surprised to see how little difference there was in their kata. They touched each other up on various aspects, but for the most part, they did the same kata. My sensei tells me that both men were very different in how they did their karate; Harrill being a bunkai man through and through, and Mitchum being a straight-ahead puncher and kicker; but both doing nearly identical kata after all those years training alone and away from each other's influence. I thought that was a pretty cool story.

Of course, I'm too far removed from the source to have any valuable insight or opinion; I just really enjoy the story of Isshin-Ryu and being a student.

 

[punisher73]

Didn't Sensei Mitchum spend a lot of time training with Master Shimabuku?

I believe so. I also think that he is one of the few that continued to go back (along with Advincula) and train after leaving.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I've seen people pull back the hand to their core slowly with tension and ibuki breathing. If that is what you are referring to, I believe this is common enough, at least with the Isshinryu I have seen. Anything more elaborate than that, you would have to show me a video of it.

I had to ask one of my senseis last night what 'ibuki breathing' was. He demonstrated, and now I get it. The videos I've seen show very similar hand movements; what I saw as 'jerky' on the hand flip in Seisan was exactly the same, but corresponded with sensei's breathing. I did not realize that the entire kata was then done under high dynamic tension; I get that now.

I can only say that in two years, I have not seen that; we do it in Sanchin, but only in that kata, and I had not been told it was 'ibuki' breathing until now. Sensei says it can be done for any kata, and it's good exercise, but it's not how we do kata normally. I had thought that the videos I saw online were how the practitioners normally did their kata (perhaps they do) instead of a variation for a particular purpose.

I teach beginners the exaggerated pelvic tuck in Sanchin since they really don't get it without the big motion to set it into their minds. It should go away over time.

Understood. Our sensei rather dislikes it, and he tells me not to do it, but we do 'tuck' and we do practice breathing from the hara and dynamic tension in the kata. Not all the way through it, but at certain places. He tests our stability at various points in the kata.

When I teach Naihanchi (I don't teach it to all my students as we are a Goju dojo, so just to those who can benefit from the short power study), I actually don't teach pelvic tilt at all. Nor do I turn the hips to the side like the gentleman does in the video. The point to Naihanchi is to be able to generate force with relatively small motions. Hip vibration along with isolated muscle group contraction/relaxation is the key, not full hip rotation.

Thanks!

At the moment, I'm stuck on Chinto. It's killing me. I can't make brown belt until I get it down, but...I'll keep working on it.

 

[Victor Smith]

My Isshinryu was always taught with very intense breating in parts of Seiunchin kata and the entire Sanchin experience.

Over the decades I've discontinued the heavy breathing with thie kids, but adults are tauaght both ways with and without the breathing in Seiunchin.

For Sanchin I take a very different approach and only use the kata as a disruptive study to destroy any attacker. I've abaondoned the intense breathing and do the kata with natural breathing and full speed.

BTW the concept 'Ibuki' did not come from Isshinryu. It was used in the Mas Oyama books to discuss Sanchin breathing. I think everyone who read it said to themselves that sounds right and must be the correct term. I know I did. Eventually I discovered it was not named (as many Okinawan techniques never had names).

Mr. Lewis taught us Seiuhnchin with very heavy breathing. Here is one of my students doing the kata the way I was taught.

When I posted it I got many Isshinryu replies how can this be so, but I'm not authorized to change what I was taught <GRIN>. Suffice it to say when we apply those slow sections we don't do it at taht speed.

I once questioned Harrill Sensei about it and he suggested the breating being shown was exaggerated for the group to understand the basic approach to breathing. As I wasn't there I can't say nor do I care, too much discussion about things that can't be proven is less than usefull after all.

Suffice this is what I teach and practice for 37 years now. I no longer use the term Ibuki, leaving it for the kyokushinkai dudes.

 

[dancingalone]

BTW the concept 'Ibuki' did not come from Isshinryu. It was used in the Mas Oyama books to discuss Sanchin breathing. I think everyone who read it said to themselves that sounds right and must be the correct term. I know I did. Eventually I discovered it was not named (as many Okinawan techniques never had names).

Indeed. Okinawan stylists like myself have adopted many loan words from out of Japanese styles. I guess the Okinawans weren't as descriptive in writing, hence the lack of terminology for ideas and concepts that nonetheless exist in their karate. Ibuki is of course one of these.

'Bunkai' is another adopted term. My teacher, an Okinawan by the way of Singapore, taught me kata applications but he never used bunkai as an operative term. He simply called them 'drills' in English.

 

[Victor Smith]

Karate as it developed on Okinawa did not develop a technical vocabulary, nor did the 'write' karate books. Dan Smith (Seibukan) explained the Okinawan term for punch, block, or almost anything would be translated as 'just put your arm here'.

Obviously they were focused on hand's on training, the instructor would show you what to do and 'correct' it if necessary, and if you could't say it you couldn't drop it's existence to the un-initiated.

In fact while Mabuni used the term 'bunkai in 1933 to explain how to break down a kata technique for its' uses, there is plenty of evidence that this was not how Okinawan's taught karate. Instead they practiced kata, and likely had a set of answer for standard attacks (which came from kata), but the detailed explanation of kata's movements is not a core Okinwan approach, but modern retro-fitting our answers to the past.

Without specific 'evidence' we can't prove the past, just infer what they did echo's in todays' training.

 

[dancingalone]

In fact while Mabuni used the term 'bunkai in 1933 to explain how to break down a kata technique for its' uses, there is plenty of evidence that this was not how Okinawan's taught karate. Instead they practiced kata, and likely had a set of answer for standard attacks (which came from kata), but the detailed explanation of kata's movements is not a core Okinwan approach, but modern retro-fitting our answers to the past.

I can say anecdotally that my teacher learned his karate during the sixties on Okinawa. He's told me that most of his so-called 'drills' (er, bunkai) are part of what they practiced back then verbatim.

Perhaps you could expand on what you mean by detailed explanation of kata movement vs. set answers coming from kata?

 

[Victor Smith]

How to explain this simply, let me try.

For example Isshinryu is mainly a Kyan derived system (as are Seibukan and several others). From friends in those systems it's farily well documented Kyan never taught anything but kata, not sepecify ways to use kata techniques. In the derivative systems that tendency remains. Some have their students try to work out what those techniques could be use for (with some direction) to allow them to see what their level of training shows them, but not the instrutor's insight.

Even in it's short term instruction, Isshinryu followed the same template, kata were just kata, but there were a small subset of responses to study for specific attacks.

On the whole the first books published in the 20's and 30's do the same (Mabuni somewhat an exception showing 'bunkai' but likely to show the Japanese rulling estalishmet what karate could do as opposed to a teaching approach). Mutsu's 1933 Kempo Karate has half the book showing series of different karate answers for groupd attacks, but not specifically tied to kata. (on the other hand he does describe uses in the kata description steps).

Where kata have hundreds of possible answers, by the 1900's Okinawa was a quiet placee and did 'students' need more than a few resonses to standard type attacks (ie strikes, grab's, some judo takedowns, etc.).

There's not a simple answer, but as I see it the inference is clear. Thing's weren't hidden, they just weren't practiced the way today we assume they must have been.

In that way Funakoshi may not have hid anything. His books did suggest some answers, but if his tradition (Itosu) didn't include deep application studies, then perhaps he just kept to what he studied.

My instructor's did not study Isshiryu 'bunkai' just the kata, and some specific self defense answers. Now their training time was short so perhaps.... on the other hand the words many repeat, it's up to you to discover the meaning, might have been the true tradition.

In any case I know how I use my system and how I teach my students to understand it's potential.