Isshinryu Variations

[dancingalone]

Out of idle curiosity, why does the Isshinryu Naihanchi start out moving to the left rather than the right like most other styles? Much the same question with Seiunchin...Why doesn't it open out to a 45 degree horse like the Goju version?

 

[Victor Smith]

Hmmmm, as to why as Shimabuku Tatsuo didn't document why he made the changes to his Isshinryu there is no definitive answer.

Naifanchi Isshinryu style actually starts out to the right, it is the right foot that steps to the left (so in that sense it depends at what you're looking at). Actually Joe Swift told me there are a handfull of schools that start out going to the left, though the clear majority of naifanchi kata start moving to the right instead of the left.

Motobu Chokoi's son's Japanese video on his fathers teachings (not the American produced version) shows Naifanchi kata step by step beginning towards the right, exactly as in his father's books. But then he shows on that video the seniors group practice and they begin the kata to the left. So it's apparent that the starting direction is of less important in their lineage than the practice.

Structurally as both halves of the kata cover the same material it's irrrelevant which direction you start, and following an earlier principle if you begin the kata and don't stop but keep going on and on for say 5 or 10 minutes for the workout, it's even less relevant.

In my own studies I was originally taught several different variations of Isshinryu naifanchi. I only teach my students one, but at times I begin with the one and end with the other - getting old, yet both do the job.

You may find it interesting that I consider the real value of Naifanchi, not the applications which are bountiful, but that the kata is a preparatory study for Chinto, developing the abdomen to work a stronger Chinto spin. And of course I was taught several different Isshinryu versions of Chinto, one of which builds more directly on the Naifanchi kata, too.

Now for Isshinryu Seiunchin turing 90 degrees in the opening instead of 45 degrees some on Okinawa claim it's that Shimabuku forgot the right way to do the kata. Perhaps, but Shimabuku participated in festival performances and had to see Goju karate-ka performing Seiunchin over the years after his own training with Miyagi Chojun. So I pesonally don't consider the forgot argument.

IMO, he had a different technique in mind to counter. Where the Goju Seiunchin is most often shown as a counter from an attack from the front, I see teh Isshinryu Seiunchin as a counter from a double wrist grab and you're using the turning 90 degrees as a force multiplier to break the grab and then down the opponent. (of course just one of many possible uses).

Kata is mutable, it has always changed. In the case of Isshinryu Shimabuku Tatuso incorporated many changes in technique as well as form of his kata as his system developed. Suffice it to suggest he had his reasons and as a true Okinawan karate-ka didn't leave them in writing.

If not having clear answers makes you work harder to work out your own, I think that's reason enough.

 

[dancingalone]

Another good post from you, Victor. I had hoped you would respond.

 

[Nomad]

The person teaching Naihanchi to Shimabuku Tatsuo was facing him, so he just did the mirror image?

Sorry, couldn't resist...

 

[Victor Smith]

Actually I always teach the form using mirror image myself.

Decades ago Carl Long (Shorin ryu Honda katsu then) taught a version where on the step across sections you turn 180 degrees and continue the kata. Suggested very interesting application potential.

For teenagers with too much energy I add Jump Spinning Reverse Crescent Kicks (and when younger I could do them in mirror image too, now alas).

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Naihanchi as performed by a group calling themselves 'Isshin Ryu Shinshinkan."

I do not know the group, but the kata looks familiar. We don't do such exaggerated movements in the first (slow) version, nor do we do such jerky movements in the last (fast) version. But at least the movements are recognizable to me.

http://en.kendincos.net/video-tdrptpdv-isshin-ryu-shinshinkan-naihanchi-kata.html

What is Isshin-Ryu Shinshinkan?

 

[dancingalone]

Naihanchi as performed by a group calling themselves 'Isshin Ryu Shinshinkan."

I do not know the group, but the kata looks familiar. We don't do such exaggerated movements in the first (slow) version, nor do we do such jerky movements in the last (fast) version. But at least the movements are recognizable to me.

http://en.kendincos.net/video-tdrptpdv-isshin-ryu-shinshinkan-naihanchi-kata.html

What is Isshin-Ryu Shinshinkan?

Not familiar with the group myself, but it appears that the leader of the group is an Argentine or Uruguayan named Gerardo Cantore with this Japanese(?) gentleman as his top student/chief instructor. http://www.maotw.com/gmg/s/shinshinkankaratedo.html Not sure if they still consider themselves Isshinryu or not, but certainly Isshinryu is their base.

I've seen a few videos of the performer on the internet. He has great snap which arguably isn't at total display in this video. He does a particularly powerful Sunsu... It's not how I practice my karate now either, but there was a time that I trained very hard to try to achieve that same type of movement that he has in abundance.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Not familiar with the group myself, but it appears that the leader of the group is an Argentine or Uruguayan named Gerardo Cantore with this Japanese(?) gentleman as his top student/chief instructor. http://www.maotw.com/gmg/s/shinshinkankaratedo.html Not sure if they still consider themselves Isshinryu or not, but certainly Isshinryu is their base.

I've seen a few videos of the performer on the internet. He has great snap which arguably isn't at total display in this video. He does a particularly powerful Sunsu... It's not how I practice my karate now either, but there was a time that I trained very hard to try to achieve that same type of movement that he has in abundance.

Thanks! The thing I noticed in the first (slow) video was the (to me) exaggerated leg-lifts and what appeared to be some inserted 'bumps' as he cocked his knee up and down or pumped it or something.

We step over, lifting the leg to make it clear that we're 'stepping over' but not so much that we're making it look like we're doing some kind of 'eek a bug' dance. I'm talking about the cross-overs, not the leg lift to represent the avoidance of a kick/sweep. We also don't do the exaggerated intro; we just come to attention, rei, and hajime. No elaborate pre-presentation. I see that a lot though. What's up with those hand flourishes?

I have noticed differences in Isshin-Ryu as practiced in Michigan and North Carolina. Not huge, but when we do 'ure uke, seikan tsuki', we do NOT cross over (the only block or punch where we do not) and we do NOT apply an overhead block before bringing down the backfist (in MI). When I was visiting in NC, we did.

I look at a lot of those Youtube videos for kata. It's a shame that the old Master Shimabuku videos were such poor quality, but that's old Super 8 film for ya. A lot of the more modern videos seem to have a lot of stuff added in that we don't do; and stuff which I just don't see in Master Shimabuku's kata. I mean like for example where the hand turns over in Seisan after doing the three open hand palm up middle body block. We do the block, turn the hand over to show a grab, and pull back to the obi, then move on. I see lots of videos where the hand flipping over becomes this big complicated fluttery thing, which lots of back and forth jerky movement. Is that supposed to signify something?

I'm asking because I don't know, not criticizing. I've only got 2 years of Isshin-Ryu, not qualified to criticize.

 

[dancingalone]

Thanks! The thing I noticed in the first (slow) video was the (to me) exaggerated leg-lifts and what appeared to be some inserted 'bumps' as he cocked his knee up and down or pumped it or something.

We step over, lifting the leg to make it clear that we're 'stepping over' but not so much that we're making it look like we're doing some kind of 'eek a bug' dance. I'm talking about the cross-overs, not the leg lift to represent the avoidance of a kick/sweep.

I think he is showing some knee stomps explicitly. It's an application I've been taught before where if you find yourself to the side of an attacker but you are nonetheless slightly behind him, you can step into the back of his knee firmly and force him down that way.

We also don't do the exaggerated intro; we just come to attention, rei, and hajime. No elaborate pre-presentation. I see that a lot though. What's up with those hand flourishes?

There's no sound on this video, but I suspect there is some stomach/ki breathing occurring. The hand going up and down is a physical reinforcement of the energy being send up and back down through the dan tian.

I have noticed differences in Isshin-Ryu as practiced in Michigan and North Carolina. Not huge, but when we do 'ure uke, seikan tsuki', we do NOT cross over (the only block or punch where we do not) and we do NOT apply an overhead block before bringing down the backfist (in MI). When I was visiting in NC, we did.

Variation in kata invariably creeps in over time.

I look at a lot of those Youtube videos for kata. It's a shame that the old Master Shimabuku videos were such poor quality, but that's old Super 8 film for ya. A lot of the more modern videos seem to have a lot of stuff added in that we don't do; and stuff which I just don't see in Master Shimabuku's kata. I mean like for example where the hand turns over in Seisan after doing the three open hand palm up middle body block. We do the block, turn the hand over to show a grab, and pull back to the obi, then move on. I see lots of videos where the hand flipping over becomes this big complicated fluttery thing, which lots of back and forth jerky movement. Is that supposed to signify something?

I'm asking because I don't know, not criticizing. I've only got 2 years of Isshin-Ryu, not qualified to criticize.

Are they executing dynamic tension like in sanchin?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think he is showing some knee stomps explicitly. It's an application I've been taught before where if you find yourself to the side of an attacker but you are nonetheless slightly behind him, you can step into the back of his knee firmly and force him down that way.

I need to ask my sensei if there is a knee stomp intended in Naihanchi. If there is, I am somehow unaware of it. Not to say that there isn't bunkai for it, but I did not think it was in the kata.

Are they executing dynamic tension like in sanchin?

Dunno, but it looks like there is some kind of symbolic movement going on. Have you not seen this yourself? We just flip the hand over and 'grasp'. Nothing else.

But that reminds me; in the video I posted the link to, there is also what appears to be a pelvic flip. In Sanchin, we tuck the tailbone, but sensei very much does not like the 'flip' of the pelvis as if we were doing groin thrusts. Looks like that in this video; an obvious 'thrust' of the pelvis. Does that seem right to your interpretation of the kata (either Naihanchi or Sanchin)?

 

[dancingalone]

Dunno, but it looks like there is some kind of symbolic movement going on. Have you not seen this yourself? We just flip the hand over and 'grasp'. Nothing else.

I've seen people pull back the hand to their core slowly with tension and ibuki breathing. If that is what you are referring to, I believe this is common enough, at least with the Isshinryu I have seen. Anything more elaborate than that, you would have to show me a video of it.

But that reminds me; in the video I posted the link to, there is also what appears to be a pelvic flip. In Sanchin, we tuck the tailbone, but sensei very much does not like the 'flip' of the pelvis as if we were doing groin thrusts. Looks like that in this video; an obvious 'thrust' of the pelvis. Does that seem right to your interpretation of the kata (either Naihanchi or Sanchin)?

I teach beginners the exaggerated pelvic tuck in Sanchin since they really don't get it without the big motion to set it into their minds. It should go away over time.

When I teach Naihanchi (I don't teach it to all my students as we are a Goju dojo, so just to those who can benefit from the short power study), I actually don't teach pelvic tilt at all. Nor do I turn the hips to the side like the gentleman does in the video. The point to Naihanchi is to be able to generate force with relatively small motions. Hip vibration along with isolated muscle group contraction/relaxation is the key, not full hip rotation.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

When I teach Naihanchi (I don't teach it to all my students as we are a Goju dojo, so just to those who can benefit from the short power study), I actually don't teach pelvic tilt at all. Nor do I turn the hips to the side like the gentleman does in the video. The point to Naihanchi is to be able to generate force with relatively small motions. Hip vibration along with isolated muscle group contraction/relaxation is the key, not full hip rotation.

If it were ever possible, I'd love to visit your dojo sometime and learn whatever I could.

 

[Victor Smith]

Shinshinkan is Isshinryu, with the name changed for I assume marketing. They do also refer themselves as Shinshinkan Isshinryu I believe.

They are direct lineage Uzeu Angi Isshinryu, though the only true constant is change happens.

My Isshinryu lineage (Shimabuku to T. Lewis to me and Shimabuku to T. Lewis to C. Murray (also Shimabuku to C Murray in part) to me performs the kata differently.

In my lineage there were no formal application studies and I fully see any movement section (depending on definition) as having dozens of applications, and practice that way, I rarely try to interpret a kata video as to the application intent. One never knows if the kata video is the true goal, or just a snapshot at that moment.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

My Isshinryu lineage (Shimabuku to T. Lewis to me and Shimabuku to T. Lewis to C. Murray (also Shimabuku to C Murray in part) to me performs the kata differently.

That's cool! Good to be so close to the source, as they say. Mine is Shimabuku -> Harrill / Mitchum -> Holloway -> Me. So I'm a bit farther down the tree, but still very lucky to be taught by someone as good as I feel my sensei is.

 

[David43515]

Naihanchi as performed by a group calling themselves 'Isshin Ryu Shinshinkan."

I do not know the group, but the kata looks familiar. We don't do such exaggerated movements in the first (slow) version, nor do we do such jerky movements in the last (fast) version. But at least the movements are recognizable to me.

http://en.kendincos.net/video-tdrptpdv-isshin-ryu-shinshinkan-naihanchi-kata.html

What is Isshin-Ryu Shinshinkan?

I can`t get it to play, so I won`t comment on how they`re doing it. When I began Isshinryu back in Ohio under Gary Copeland we began Naihanchi by moving to the left. In Seisan afterthe middle palm up blocks we generally pulled back with tension and ibuki breathing, but instead of pulling to the obi we pulled lower. Towards the hip joint so there was a distinct downward pull to break the balance. Once in a while you`d see guys roll the hand slightly as they pulled so that thier hand was palm facing to the rear. The idea was that you were using thefirst joint of the index finger to apply a rolling downward pressue to the top of the seized wrist. But we didn`t do it all the time.

I guess it just goes to show that there`s more than one bunkai for different techniques, and that people tend to change the kata a little to suit themselves over time.

I kind of like Iain Abernethy`s videos about bunkai because he`ll often show two styles` version of the same kata, for instance Wado ryu and Shotokan. And even though the technique is occationally different, the problem the technique is meant to solve is often the same. The difference is usually something as simple as one style using a side kick and the other using a front kick, or moving to 45 degrees as opposed to 90 degrees.

 

[rlp271]

I was taught Naifanchi with very little hip movement, basically none. All the power comes from very small motions. In discussions of variation in Isshinryu, or even discussions of why Isshinryu's kata look different from the style they were taken from, lineage comes into play.

The way I see it, Shimabuku loved to tinker with things, and was doing it until he died. Nagle and Long brought back an Isshinryu that was different from the Isshinryu that came to the US later with men like Armstrong, Smith, and Advincula. Each person's Isshinryu would have been adapted to their body type as well, the smaller Advincula or the much larger Steve Armstrong. Repeated contact with Shimabuku would have allowed a person to view the changes over time as well. Which leads to my next point, I bet if you dug around long enough, you'd find at least one Isshinryu dojo that does a version of Seiunchin that is closer to Goju-ryu's, and another that starts Naifanchi going the opposite direction. I'm not sure if Isshinryu was every supposed to be a completely codified system, but that's another discussion.

 

[Victor Smith]

Styles in Okinawan karate did not begin until after WWII, imitating the Japanese karate styles. Before that there were just instructors and they taught as they needed.

Isshinryu, Shimabuku Tatuso's art, likely changed as much as more experience was gained training American students as anything. The transmission was very rapid, very few individuals in the world could have done better considering the very short time the American's had to train (max 16 months).

Coincident with the onset of instructing American Marines, they also allowed the opportunity to change what he was teaching. Many of his Okiawan students quit, to not associate with the Americans (which they linked to the vast devistation of Okinawa during the invasion) as much as not wishing to change the Kyan based training Shimabuku was providing previously. For quite some time he had both pre and post Isshinryu being taught in his dojo. Then the Vietnam years allowed for shorter tours of duty and instructional changes to add more kobudo and deal with less time for the students, caused more changes.

Shimabuku Tatsuo, being a true Okinawan, did not document his system, so no one can authoratively say and prove why he did what he did. That leaves different instructors (Okinawan and American) with differing answers.

Myself I don't think the 'why of the past' is terribly important, but rather the 'why of the now'. I just work to take the versions of our kata I use and work to drop as many possible attackers with them as possible.

 

[dancingalone]

Styles in Okinawan karate did not begin until after WWII, imitating the Japanese karate styles. Before that there were just instructors and they taught as they needed.

Do you think we have hit a point of critical mass where style has indeed become very important? Where technique and philosophy and training methods have diverged so much that it's best to keep trucking on with the path one has chosen rather than being more of a generalist? I guess that depends on what one is practicing exactly... More or less this is just some grist to chew on.

 

[punisher73]

The way I see it, Shimabuku loved to tinker with things, and was doing it until he died. Nagle and Long brought back an Isshinryu that was different from the Isshinryu that came to the US later with men like Armstrong, Smith, and Advincula. Each person's Isshinryu would have been adapted to their body type as well, the smaller Advincula or the much larger Steve Armstrong. Repeated contact with Shimabuku would have allowed a person to view the changes over time as well. Which leads to my next point, I bet if you dug around long enough, you'd find at least one Isshinryu dojo that does a version of Seiunchin that is closer to Goju-ryu's, and another that starts Naifanchi going the opposite direction. I'm not sure if Isshinryu was every supposed to be a completely codified system, but that's another discussion.

I think that's the biggest key there. Shimabuku's personal approach was in constant refinement and depending on when you were there it influenced on how you were taught. I have read from some later people that with the shorter tours of duty the 8 kata was cut back even more but there were enough people already doing the standard 8 that it didn't really stick.

Add that to the fact of how many actually went back to Okinawa to follow up on their training or get further refinements and you have even more "changes" brought into the system as instructors put their own stamp on it from their experience and understanding.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think that's the biggest key there. Shimabuku's personal approach was in constant refinement and depending on when you were there it influenced on how you were taught. I have read from some later people that with the shorter tours of duty the 8 kata was cut back even more but there were enough people already doing the standard 8 that it didn't really stick.

Add that to the fact of how many actually went back to Okinawa to follow up on their training or get further refinements and you have even more "changes" brought into the system as instructors put their own stamp on it from their experience and understanding.

Didn't Sensei Mitchum spend a lot of time training with Master Shimabuku?