Is Wing Chun just Rock'em Sock'em?

[HammockRider]

Hi Everyone,
Let me start off by saying that I think Wing Chun is a pretty interesting art. The idea of a "soft" punching style is very intriguing. I know that's probably a generalization, but that idea is part of why I find it so intersting.

I do have a question. Can you use Wing Chun to deal with less than 'LETHAL STREET ATTACKS"? In other words, can you use it simply to restrain someone? Are there joint locks, holds or throws in Wing Chun? How do you deal with an opponent if you want to stop them without smashing them up? For example, if you had a friend/family memebr/co-worker/student that was angry, drunk or just out of control and seemed dangerous to others or themself, how would Wing Chun deal with that?

I'm sorry if this seems like an ignorant question but while I find WC very interesting I haven't as yet practiced it. Thanks.

 

[mook jong man]

The only thing you can really do is vary the target and the weapon used , maybe a palm strike to the chest in place of a punch to the chin , a heel kick to the quadricep instead of a heel kick to the kneecap or shin trying to use lesser force is more likely just going to piss them off and make the situation worse.

There are joint locks that can be taken to the point of compliance rather than breaking the wrist or the elbow but in Wing Chun these are a result of the opponent initiating a grab , generally speaking we do not sieze an attackers limb to execute a joint lock , we prefer to keep the arms free for striking.

There are throws that can be executed from an opponents arm grab using the stance to leg lock , pivot and throw to the ground , with a bit of modification it could be done gently to throw them to the ground without breaking the arm at the elbow joint.

Another throw is a combined elbow strike and sweep kick which done in its proper ballistic fashion would mean extensive injury to the opponent , but with modification the elbow strike could be substituted with a forearm around the neck to put them down a bit gently.

But you have to think about what are you going to do once you have put them down , do you have the grappling experience whereby you might put a knee ride on them to keep them there or some other type of pin.

So in summary , no , Wing Chun does not do the restraint thing very well , a lot of restraint techniques would be contrary to the principle of minimum use of brute strength as it is seen from a Wing Chun perspective.

It would be best for you to cross train in a style that specialises in restraint techniques , then fuse them with the Wing Chun techniques.

Many deflections used in Wing Chun can easily be modified to capture the arm and slap a standing arm bar on , or maybe instead of doing a Pak Sau and punch in response to an attackers punch you may just opt to parry the punch , step in and put them in a head/arm choke then sweep and take down .

Or if the opponent is too tall to reach up to the neck then , then throw your forearm across there chest as you sweep and take them down that way .

The take downs are the easy part , its the what are you going to do to keep them there that is hard and requires training from a grappling style in my opinion.

The skill that is gained in Chi Sau from learning to control an opponents arms is perfect for setting up entries into grappling range or setting up joint locks , if I can get my Tan Sau up past his Fook Sau to strike his throat then it is a piece of cake to just step in deeper and capture the neck and do a hip throw or a trip.

But as I said before there are modifications in positiong that must be done and most of the techniques will be in direct contradiction to Wing Chun principles , but they are possible.

 

[WC_lun]

I think it depends upon where you train. My sifu is also a BB in juijistsu and one of my training brothers is a black belt in juijistsu and judo. My sifu's first Wing Chun system was white crane wing chun, which deals a lot with chin na. For some schools, strikes are the main and only focus. If someone somehow makes thier way into grappling range, they immediatley try to get space to resume striking. For us, we excercise the option of recovery back to a striking range or to flow into grappling. Keep in mind that many, many, of the concepts of Wing Chun are equally as valid in that range as well, such as economy of motion, structure, triangulation, etc. This is not to say either way is right or wrong, just different. The preferred method would be what you yourself are more comfortable with.

 

[El_Nastro]

can you use it simply to restrain someone?

You can use it to control someone who's trying to hit you, so I'd say "sort of".

Are there joint locks, holds or throws in Wing Chun?

I was shown a few locks & told that, while they are actual bona fide Wing Chun, we don't emphasize them because they're really hard to put on someone in a real fight. Even so, we learn them on the off chance that the opportunity to apply them presents itself.

Note: these locks aren't about "restraint". They're quick, violent, wrenching locks meant to break something and open the line, so they're not well suited to the type of application you're talking about.

There are no holds.

Wing Chun does have pulls and trips that can put an opponent on the ground, but nothing I'd call a a "throw" (like in Judo or Aikido where they use leverage & throw the enemy using the hip). And WC's pulls, trips, etc. are more about disrupting the enemie's balance to make them easier to hit.

How do you deal with an opponent if you want to stop them without smashing them up? For example, if you had a friend/family memebr/co-worker/student that was angry, drunk or just out of control and seemed dangerous to others or themself, how would Wing Chun deal with that?

The fact is that WC is not Aikido or Judo....WC's designed around hitting. Hitting the enemy is WC's strategy.

So if a regular, halfway competent WC practitioner needed to put someone down while doing minimum damage, I guess the WC guy would just hit them & not continue pounding them into hamburger after they went down.

That being said, I have met WC people who were good enough that they could take someone's balance with a relatively "nice" pull or shove, while at the same time defending themself from being hit...but that level of skill takes a long time to develop.

 

[Xue Sheng]

First in an effort to prevent all Wing Chun people from hunting me down and pummeling me into submission I must say I do honestly like Wing Chun and I am still working rather seriously on Sill Lump Tao and I know it is a really good CMA. But I have to admit every time I have seen it trained or applied I have thought of Rock’em Sock’em Robots.

But since my main art is Taijiquan which is very different in its approach to a confrontation I have always look at it this way as it applies to Wing Chun fighting is a very serious thing so don’t do it unless you have no other choice. And this may be my lack of experience in Wing Chun and maybe my taiji background talking but if you don’t want to hurt someone it would appear to me that someone that was good at Chi Sau could frustrate the hell out of someone without beating them to a pulp.

 

[cwk]

There are a lot of different types of wing chun out there, each with it's own way of doing things. Although I'd agree with the statements that wing chun has a focus on striking, it is still a CMA system and thus contains the 4 elements that all CMA have- ti, da ,shuai ,na in varying degrees. Although if you only ever saw youtube videos, you'd be forgiven for thinking it's all chain punching and pak saus.
There are ways to control your opponent without grabbing and holding on to them. correct angles and body mass transfer through techniques like lan sau, cheen sau, chang jeung, etc, coupled with invasive footwork like leg trapping are good for barring off one side of their upper body and breaking their balance at the same time. Once you have them like this, you use the skills developed in chi sao and other drills to keep their balance broken and their actions limited or under control.

 

[geezer]

Personally, I'm with Mook on this one. Yip Man Wing Chun is fundamentally a percussive art. Yes, there are some locks and such, but we really don't focus on controlling and restraining as much as striking. Still, as Mook pointed out, there is a lot you can do to deal with "a drunken uncle" who's out of control.

You do not want to throw a "deadly technique" and "pull it" so that you can intimidate them without hurting them. I tried this once on my own uncle when he got drunk and confrontational at a family gathering. He utterly failed to perceive that I could have taken both his eyes out with my well placed double chuen sau strike, and just let me have it below the belt, doubling me over and dropping me to the floor. On the bright side, that not only ended the confrontation, but he got all weepy-sobby and still apologizes to me about it to this day, more than twenty-five years later.

But, for those of you who don't want to take it in the cojones to settle a dispute, I can recommend a good gut or solar plexus shot, and, if you are concerned about witnesses, use an open palm. You don't have to really hurt them, just knock the wind out of them. Even drunks have to breath. And, as Mook said, a simple sweep or throw is good too. Drunks are not known for their superior balance. And finally, if they keep getting up and asking for more, just leave!

 

[Sifu Palmer]

With a "jart" kick to the inner or outer part of the leg you can easily bring someone to the ground. Also, because Wing Chun focuses on body mechanics it is really easy to use that knowledge to manipulate the joints and bring people down without causing a lot of pain as long as there isn't any resistance.

 

[HammockRider]

Thanks everyone for your thoughful responses. You've answered my question and then some. I appreciate it.