Is there such a thing as "chinese kenpo"

[MMAfighter]

So Chinese Kenpo is very different then how feng wei uses it in tekken 5??

 

[still learning]

Hello, Yes there is a thing call " Chinese Kempo". Our Professor from the "Universal Kempo-Karate Associations" ( see Yahoo), uses the term (chinese Kempo to describe our stystem of martial arts. or they say "Chinese boxing".

It is just a term we use in Hawaii. Professor Adriano Emperado who is credited for starting the Kajukenpo style in Hawaii is our Professor's teacher. Professor Buell than start "Universal Kempo-Karate Schools in Hawaii and we now have over 70 schools around the United States including Barbadous.

It is just a term we use to describe our system " Chinese Kempo" aka Chinese boxing.... just a name we use..............A student of Universal......Aloha

 

[Bode]

So Chinese Kenpo is very different then how feng wei uses it in tekken 5??

I have yet to see Tekken 5. However, Kenpo does differ from teacher to teacher. Who the game makers based the moves on would make a difference.
As for the existence of Chinese Kenpo. Yes, it existed, as many in this thread have stated.

 

[Doc]

Well, i was playing tekken 5 and one of the characters discription says chinese kenpo, yea i know "it's a video game", but then i was reading this thing on Mas oyama(the kyokushin creator) and it had said that his first martial arts was chinese kenpo, so I'm wondering, does anyone know if there is a such thing as chinese kenpo?? and is it similar to Japanese, american, ect. Kenpo

Absolutely, and there are many variations and intrepretations depending upon lineage and when learned. Ed Parker Sr. changed from the heavily Japanese and Okinawa influenced "Kenpo-Karate" of William Chow, after coming to the mainland and dropped "karate" from his art, and began teaching "Chinese Kenpo." This was much influnced by Hung Gar, Five Animal, and particularly, Mok Gar and Splashing Hands. This period even utilized classical Chinese forms with little modifications. "Tiger and the Crane" used to be THE form in Parker's Chinese Kenpo, before he ultimately slipped into and diverted part of his energy to the commercialization and creation of "Ed Parker's Kenpo-Karate." He however did continue to evolve his personal art he called "American Kenpo" which is not represented in motion based Kenpo-Karate.

 

[Jagdish]

Sir:

I am sorry to pester you again but is there any chance that Epak could be influenced by some internal arts like taichi, pakua and/or Hsing-I?

Hope not to bother you.

Yours,

Jagdish

Absolutely, and there are many variations and intrepretations depending upon lineage and when learned. Ed Parker Sr. changed from the heavily Japanese and Okinawa influenced "Kenpo-Karate" of William Chow, after coming to the mainland and dropped "karate" from his art, and began teaching "Chinese Kenpo." This was much influnced by Hung Gar, Five Animal, and particularly, Mok Gar and Splashing Hands. This period even utilized classical Chinese forms with little modifications. "Tiger and the Crane" used to be THE form in Parker's Chinese Kenpo, before he ultimately slipped into and diverted part of his energy to the commercialization and creation of "Ed Parker's Kenpo-Karate." He however did continue to evolve his personal art he called "American Kenpo" which is not represented in motion based Kenpo-Karate.

 

[Seabrook]

I have been archiving to DVD some very old footage of SGM Parker around 1961. The style is definetly very Japanese and I think little would argue this point for those who have seen it.
Later, in the 70's and 80's, footage of SGM becomes less Japanese and begins to look more Chinese in movement.

Very interesting Bode.

I wish I had access to some of this earler footage of Ed Parker so that I could see the evolution of our great system from decade to decade.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Seabrook]

Mr. Chapel,

From what I gather from Bode, you are much more influenced by the Chinese aspect of Kenpo than the Japanese.

Just wondering, do you require students to learn Tiger and Crane and/or Book Set? What are your thoughts on these Hung Gar forms? To be honest, I love them, but don't require them since there is more than enough material already.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, which forms and sets do you require?

Thanks,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[lonekimono10]

tiger and crane was not from Parker kenpo, eather was book set, i have a
paper from when i was doing tracys kenpo way back and the words bok-set
is on there, of couse it was spelled wrong, book set is what it should of said.

 

[Seabrook]

Hi Mr. Elmer.

I was aware that the Tiger & Crane and the Book Set were never required in EPAK, although Mr. Parker did teach them at one time.
From my understanding, I thought the "Bok Set" was actually its real name, but people later called it "Book Set" or "Panther Set."

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[lonekimono10]

i remember asking Dennis Tosden about this years ago, ??? you know you got me wondering about it now, i think he said that it was called book- set
you know Jason you could be right.

 

[Doc]

Very interesting Bode.

I wish I had access to some of this earler footage of Ed Parker so that I could see the evolution of our great system from decade to decade.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Time frame is important because things changed very rapidly. The material Parker was teaching in the fifties was very "Japanese-like" rigid but was still not Japanese, although the influence was there via Hawaii. Parker studied and was ranked simultaneously in, "Kenpo, Karate, and Jiu-Jitsu." Various forms of "karate" were everywhere, along with Okazaki DanZan Ryu Jiu-Jitsu, as well as the Chinese Arts, but heavily influenced by Okinawa Kempo" or what was know then as "te" or hand.

In those days, very little attention was paid to "style." Everyone cross-studied in whatever was available, picking what he liked and adding it to his own style. Parker called it "cross pollination." and it produced many style mixes, of which the original art of substance was actually "Kajukenbo."

Chow taught what he termed "Kenpo-Karate," a mixture of the various Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan based information he was exposed to, but it was very loose and informal. Chow had no real structure and taught whatever came to mind at the time. "We wasn't very edgemucated." as Parker used to say with a smile; so putting together a structure wasn't part of the process. Chow was about getting down to the bare bones fight. Because of this he rarely touched on forms, although it had been said by Parker that Chow did indeed know various forms from different styles.

Chow wanted to fight, and worked on straightforward techniques to that end. Chow virtually created the "self-defense" aspect of the arts as a focus rather than a byproduct like most classical arts. Parker always gave him credit for that idea which had not been done before. Traditionally the arts were always built around, and the information passed through formal "sets, forms, and/or kata." Chow began the reversal of that process, emphasizing "technique" first, which was extremely innovative and controversial at the time.

This is where much of the confusion about the origin of "kenpo" comes from. Although Chinese in origin like most arts, its arrival in Hawaii gave it a serious dose of the dominant Japanese/Okinawa influence that Parker started with.

However once coming to the mainland, Parker rediscovered the rich Chinese roots almost immediately in Southern California, going from his first book in 1961 "Kenpo-Karate," to his second book in 1963 "Secrets of Chinese Karate" in a brief two-year period. Even in the commercial motion based era of the seventies, the manuals he wrote and produced specifically took all of Parker's various interpretations back to their Chinese origins of Chuan fa/Chuan shu, and stated so in describing the history of his art.

The confusion has to do with lineages, time frame, and personal preferences. Originally, the Japanese influences were evident in some of the ritual customs, uniform, and language Parker used, but even that was contradictory. The left over right fist horse/meditation position of the Chinese was very evident as part of the formality, but yet many were still doing Japanese bowing while wearing Japanese uniforms out of practicality. Ultimately we had patches that boldly stated "Kenpo Karate," with Chinese writing on either side.

These cultural contradictions continued into his commercial art because, more than any other Parker interpretation it relied on black belts from other styles and lineages to be successful. Many black belts came over and then began to learn Parker's kenpo-Karate through his loose conceptual guidelines and technique manuals. Many of these black belts kept their previous rituals and customs and interjected them into their interpretations of the Parker Material, even though Parker himself left all Japanese language and customs behind him when he left the "yudanshakai" in favor of an all "American" interpretation perspective of the Chinese Arts he was learning.

The promotional authority that was originally created for Parker's first organization was its own Japanese "yudanshakai." They awarded "Dan" ranks based on that authority and the Japanese rank structure that permeates even Ed Parker Kenpo-Karate to this day. This is the reason why it has three degrees of brown belt, and why the numbers are reversed counting downward.

Technically, if you're doing Ed Parker's Kenpo-Karate it should be an "English only" approach according to the business plan. However, Parker didn't want to upset the many school owners and the way they were comfortable teaching. Many groups within the organization even chose to not wear the Parker Kenpo-Karate Patch. Parker never made a big deal out these things, and of course it confused people has to how it was "really" supposed to be.

Truth is the only standard was the one set by the head instructor of a group. Different color uniforms, different patches, different names, different customs and protocols abounded from school to school. Even in the West Los Angeles School, one of the few actually owned by Ed Parker, he allowed students in the eighties to wear the patch of the head instructor who also had his own rituals and method of doing things that proved quite successful. As long as it worked, it didn't matter.

This is why there is no "one Kenpo" and when people speak of the characteristics of kenpo, I always say "Whose kenpo?" Kenpo not only has gone through many spins and interpretations, all by Parker himself, but it also because of these many interpretations has many "splinter branch" interpretations as well.

The most well known "motion" based system, and its many splinters is based on Parkers business model Kenpo and is arguably the most successful because that is what it was designed to be, unlike his other interpretations. What makes this so interesting is that system it self was a Parker splinter chipped off of his Chinese/American Kenpo branch and molded specifically to sell quick concepts for student interpretation and implementation as a pure business which ultimately overwhelmed him with its success.

That doesn't mean Parker abandoned his very personal "American Kenpo," and he continued to evolve that until he passed. That is why most of his later students and their students were incapable of reproducing the results he achieved. They simply were doing something different than he was.

In the end, many stick to "their" Japanese Roots, while others like Steve Hearring stick to his Chinese Kenpo Roots as taught by Parker. Still others evolved to various points and interpretations with Parker. What they do depends on what they learned, when they learned, how long they learned, and how they interpreted it, and how they continue to interpret it today.

Yes, there was Chinese Kenpo and Parker taught it while borrowing forms, sets, and ideas from the many Chinese teachers and lessons to which he was exposed. Others, like Ralph Castro also taught their own brand of Chinese Kenpo, while others like Nick Cerio leaned toward the Japanese. The “Kenpo Tree” is indeed a cross pollinated plant with many branches all bearing different tasting fruit. So good, some bad, some poision. What are you eating? To follow "Kenpo's" evolution you would have to get on and off the main road many times and take lots of back roads. Many dead ends, and roads that end abruptly, only to circle back around again. The road signs are in various languages and you never know where you are until you ask someone for directions, and they may not know how to get you back on the main road - whatever and where ever that is.

 

[Doc]

tiger and crane was not from Parker kenpo, eather was book set, i have a
paper from when i was doing tracys kenpo way back and the words bok-set
is on there, of couse it was spelled wrong, book set is what it should of said.

Technically, it was because Parker adopted them with little modifications making them a part of his Chinese Kenpo era. If you re-read my original post I stated where they came from. By the way, where do you think the Tracy's got them from? Ed Parker of course.

 

[Doc]

Mr. Chapel,

From what I gather from Bode, you are much more influenced by the Chinese aspect of Kenpo than the Japanese.

Just wondering, do you require students to learn Tiger and Crane and/or Book Set? What are your thoughts on these Hung Gar forms? To be honest, I love them, but don't require them since there is more than enough material already.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, which forms and sets do you require?

Thanks,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

SubLevel Four is Ed Parker's American kenpo with the applical Chinese Kenpo influences intact. We do not do forms from other styles or from the Chinese Kenpo era. Parker himself dropped those forms and sets years ago in the seventies. Our forms mirror what you know through Short Three I presume, with specialized forms and sets designed specifcally to maximize anatomical efficiency and cultivate internal energy. My Chinese influence is from the same school parker attended. My first teacher was Ark Wong, but of course not at the same time as Mr. Parker. As far as that early footage, I was just looking at it. I have the original 16mm film running on my kitchen table as we speak. I'm reviewing it for Jason Bugg who has requested a peek.

 

[Doc]

Sir:

I am sorry to pester you again but is there any chance that Epak could be influenced by some internal arts like taichi, pakua and/or Hsing-I?
Jagdish

Very much so. Jimmy Woo actually taught Taiji in Parker's school in Pasadena. The influence is definitely there, and very much present in SubLevel Four kenpo.

 

[Jagdish]

Very much so. Jimmy Woo actually taught Taiji in Parker's school in Pasadena. The influence is definitely there, and very much present in SubLevel Four kenpo.

Sir:

In Pa Kua their approach to the arts is always in circles no matter we talk about footwork, hits,joint locking or throwing. Everything twists, turns, recoils, etc.

Epak is something similar in the approach: Can you comment on the possible influence of Pakua (if any) on Epak?

Thanks again, sir.

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[Doc]

Sir:

In Pa Kua their approach to the arts is always in circles no matter we talk about footwork, hits,joint locking or throwing. Everything twists, turns, recoils, etc.

Epak is something similar in the approach: Can you comment on the possible influence of Pakua (if any) on Epak?

Thanks again, sir.

Yours,

Jagdish

I have no personal experiences with Pakua. Jimmy Woo used to tell us in reference to the Chinese Arts, "It's all the same, its just a matter of how you go about learning it."

 

[ZDawson]

I think that we are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Of course there is “Chinese Kempo” It is the name chosen by Chow/Parker to represent their Systems. Like naming a business, they sat down and asked the question; “What words best represent what we do?” Every founder of a martial system has faced this dilemma. Some names in hindsight and without the benefit of the founders explaining their intention, leave us with questions like; “Is there such a thing as “Chinese Kempo?” Creating an opportunity for us to interpretation and create meaning. Many of which have been expressed in this form. Both Chow and Parker went on to change the name of their systems. This is a constant evolution in Martial Arts and should be embraced.

 

[evenflow1121]

Old thread, and yes I believe there is such a thing.

 

[Doc]

I think that we are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Of course there is “Chinese Kempo” It is the name chosen by Chow/Parker to represent their Systems. Like naming a business, they sat down and asked the question; “What words best represent what we do?” Every founder of a martial system has faced this dilemma. Some names in hindsight and without the benefit of the founders explaining their intention, leave us with questions like; “Is there such a thing as “Chinese Kempo?” Creating an opportunity for us to interpretation and create meaning. Many of which have been expressed in this form. Both Chow and Parker went on to change the name of their systems. This is a constant evolution in Martial Arts and should be embraced.

First Professor Chow used the term “Kenpo-Karate,” and it is the term Mr. Parker initially used to describe his own art when he first came to the mainland.

Mr. Parker quickly switched to Chinese Kenpo before moving on to American Kenpo later as his interpretation of “Chinese Kenpo.” Recognizing some personal problems, Mr. Parker deviated into a commercial version called “American Kenpo Karate,” and ultimately “Ed Parker’s Kenpo Karate” saving the term “American Kenpo” for his personal Art and not the motion based commercial vehicle most are familiar with.

Other as well have used the term “Chinese Kenpo” so it is not exclusive to Ed Parker. Initially when I first came on the scene in the dark ages, “Chinese Kenpo” was generic for Chaun Fa.

But there were representations of "Kempo" everywhere. "Okinawan Kempo," Hawaiin Kempo," "Korean Kempo," and even "Japanese Kempo" were common as most of these nationalities struggled to identify their own versions of the generic Chinese Term of "Kenpo" or Chuan Shu as it was known as well in China. The word spelled "kenpo" but pronounced "kempo" was generic outside of China to describe Chinese fghting arts much like much of the Japanese arts were simply known as "kara-te" or emptyhand, and/or jiujitsu.

 

[kenpoworks]

Good to have you back Doc.
Rich