Is there "KATA"S in JKD?

Hello, Kata's has it's own definations....Boxing movements is NOT A KATA...there is a difference.

The definations of Kata's....look at it...study it....it refers to prearrange movements...to be done in precise way. Each movements or turns...only reacts to one set of defense/offence sequence. (one cannot make changes) such as Heian shodan....look at it...then try to apply this to real fighting...would you move like that and fight like that in those stances?

Sometimes if you look at things only one way? you will not see the other side?

Try and see...the other side....or another way of looking at Kata?

For those who are set and believe in Kata? .....Make a study of seeing the other side? ....ask yourself...Why people do not believe in Kata...make a study of this...from there point of view...NOT mines......then you will have ammo....to destroy the beliefs of...Is kata good or not good?

Learn why other don't see the WHY's and why nots? ....when you learn both sides point of view....will make you a better JUDGE! Be open minded when researching other side of view...

I once heard a Shotokan Sensi 5th degree , once said ? Want to learn to fight take boxing...want to learn Karate...learn Kata.

To learn to fight? ...one must fight to learn! Kata is not fighting
Fights is "Anything goes, fast, furious, NO RULES, Biting, scatching,pick up anything for weapons ( or the others will use it before you), anyone can jumb in, in close fighting one minute than far, NO SET of stances...just total CHAOS....

For years I believe in Kata's .......others open my eyes? .....NO one fights like a Kata!

Better yet: Look at those who excell in Kata tournaments...than see how they do in Full contact fighting? .....the answers will surprise you!

Other's may think your thoughts of Kata's as being wrong.....as long as you know you are RIGHT! ...in your beliefs...and your beliefs only....than it makes it RIGHT! For YOU!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What is right for you to believe...is your right! ..............Aloha
 
still learning said:
Hello, Kata's has it's own definations....Boxing movements is NOT A KATA...there is a difference.

The definations of Kata's....look at it...study it....it refers to prearrange movements...to be done in precise way. Each movements or turns...only reacts to one set of defense/offence sequence. (one cannot make changes) such as Heian shodan....look at it...then try to apply this to real fighting...would you move like that and fight like that in those stances?

Sometimes if you look at things only one way? you will not see the other side?

Try and see...the other side....or another way of looking at Kata?

For those who are set and believe in Kata? .....Make a study of seeing the other side? ....ask yourself...Why people do not believe in Kata...make a study of this...from there point of view...NOT mines......then you will have ammo....to destroy the beliefs of...Is kata good or not good?

Learn why other don't see the WHY's and why nots? ....when you learn both sides point of view....will make you a better JUDGE! Be open minded when researching other side of view...

I once heard a Shotokan Sensi 5th degree , once said ? Want to learn to fight take boxing...want to learn Karate...learn Kata.

To learn to fight? ...one must fight to learn! Kata is not fighting
Fights is "Anything goes, fast, furious, NO RULES, Biting, scatching,pick up anything for weapons ( or the others will use it before you), anyone can jumb in, in close fighting one minute than far, NO SET of stances...just total CHAOS....

For years I believe in Kata's .......others open my eyes? .....NO one fights like a Kata!

Better yet: Look at those who excell in Kata tournaments...than see how they do in Full contact fighting? .....the answers will surprise you!

Other's may think your thoughts of Kata's as being wrong.....as long as you know you are RIGHT! ...in your beliefs...and your beliefs only....than it makes it RIGHT! For YOU!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What is right for you to believe...is your right! ..............Aloha
Click to expand...


Why do you not understand that any pre-arrange movement can be a Kata or form in Boxing they have pre-arranged hitting drills with movement in between to get out of they way of there opponet. You keep saying have a opened mind but yours is closed when it comes to forms. Why? What do you believe makes a fighter great sparring, all that does is teach bad habits. And yes I have been in the game for a long time so I see them come and go all the time.
Aloha.
 
still learning said:
Hello, Kata's has it's own definations....Boxing movements is NOT A KATA...there is a difference.

The definations of Kata's....look at it...study it....it refers to prearrange movements...to be done in precise way. Each movements or turns...only reacts to one set of defense/offence sequence. (one cannot make changes) such as Heian shodan....look at it...then try to apply this to real fighting...would you move like that and fight like that in those stances?

Sometimes if you look at things only one way? you will not see the other side?

Try and see...the other side....or another way of looking at Kata?

For those who are set and believe in Kata? .....Make a study of seeing the other side? ....ask yourself...Why people do not believe in Kata...make a study of this...from there point of view...NOT mines......then you will have ammo....to destroy the beliefs of...Is kata good or not good?

Learn why other don't see the WHY's and why nots? ....when you learn both sides point of view....will make you a better JUDGE! Be open minded when researching other side of view...

I once heard a Shotokan Sensi 5th degree , once said ? Want to learn to fight take boxing...want to learn Karate...learn Kata.

To learn to fight? ...one must fight to learn! Kata is not fighting
Fights is "Anything goes, fast, furious, NO RULES, Biting, scatching,pick up anything for weapons ( or the others will use it before you), anyone can jumb in, in close fighting one minute than far, NO SET of stances...just total CHAOS....

For years I believe in Kata's .......others open my eyes? .....NO one fights like a Kata!

Better yet: Look at those who excell in Kata tournaments...than see how they do in Full contact fighting? .....the answers will surprise you!

Other's may think your thoughts of Kata's as being wrong.....as long as you know you are RIGHT! ...in your beliefs...and your beliefs only....than it makes it RIGHT! For YOU!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What is right for you to believe...is your right! ..............Aloha
Click to expand...

I don't know why I bother, but I may as well reply, yet again. SL, IMHO, you are missing something here. As I have said countless times, yet you seem to not read this...a kata is a preset series of movements. Boxing combos, while not called kata per se, are prearranged series of movements. A kata done in a martial arts school is done move by move. However, break that kata down, take parts out to use in self defense...that is how its done in real life. No, you're not going to get into a stance, bow and move in 20 different directions, but like an actual self defense technique, you can break a kata down and extract the move you need to suit your need at that time.

You seem to be so hell bent on kata. Obviously you have no understanding of kata. If you don't want to do it, fine, then dont do it. But, to make it sound like it has no value...well, that is where you're very wrong. Just because you don't understand it, does not mean someone else won't feel differently. Additionally, kata is one small part of the arts. There are other things that complete the circle of being a martial artist.

Mike
 
still learning said:
Hello, I remember many things that was taught to be true....in time new science comes along...and changes things. The future will show people like me will be proven right or wrong.

Bruce Lee's -NOT sure why he didn't believe in Kata as his training progress many years later...wish he was here to address his belief's on this use of Kata's.

I use to believe everything that was taught to me growing up.as the truths...than one day.....you learn lessons...and start to see things differently and questions the many things out there...Why?

Kata's was one of those....where my beliefs change.....Real fighting changes the way you train too....Aloha

PS: Every soldier who go to combat training...and comes back saying it is NOT same as training.....(lots of fears) to deal with..same with street fights!

AS they say: "Hard head" ....stubborn....even hopeless at times...Is this ME! ........Simile ....
Click to expand...

S_L, I hate to say it, but there is not one item of specific information in the post from you I've quoted. You've been given very specific information, and references to sources that contain detailed explanations of what kata actually are, why they are terrifically effective for combat training, but why that training has to take certain forms to convert the knoweldge that kata contain into street-effective conditioned reflexes. And you haven't taken in any of that information, or read any of the sources.

Your posts on this topic remind me of someone who comes along with a sentence in Greek that they don't know the meaning of, and which, not knowing any Greek, they claim is meaningless babble. They get a bunch of responses along the lines of, hey, this is just a sentence in modern Greek. You can get it translated by someone at any university who knows classical languages; and also look, here's a simple translation program that can do the job. And instead of pursuing either option, the person asking about the sentence responds with a post like... oh, let's say,

does this make sense or not... everyone's opinion is different?... Will the future tell us one way or the other.... etc. etc.... aloha

The answer to your question is out there, the resources are out there, but instead of doing a little bit of work to get your question answered, your posts are pretty much right in line with the above. No specifics. No response to the evidence presented, even to challenge it. Are you surprised at the tone of the responses you get from very experienced and capable MAists and instructors? Have you actually noticed the tone of those responses? Ever wonder why you get the sorts of reactions you do? I'm trying to tell you, but the evidence is mounting that you simply do not pay any attention to what people say.

Do you really want your questions on kata answered? Then don't keep posting queries that elicit responses you ignore. Just take two weeks, sit down with any of the many excellent recent books on bunkai and realistic `alive' training methods, and work it through; anything by Iain Abernethy is an excellent place to start. If you won't do this, more and more people are going to conclude that your questions aren't actually sincere... bear in mind, trolls also do this same sort of thing. A word to the wise, eh?
 
Hmm..here is an interesting article.
http://www.lotusmartialarts.com/articles_importanceofkata.htm

Some key parts from it.

"Katas were originally used to mimic combat scenarios. It was not feasible to use katas on a training partner because it would maim and seriously hurt him. Controlled sparring was later developed which would advance progress and decrease the learning time for a student to learn many of the benefits of practicing katas."
Click to expand...
Well, look at that. Kata was used to mimic combat scenarios.

Executing strikes during a kata reinforces what the student has in his arsenal for offensive attacks. The student executes punches, elbows, chops, kicks, knee strikes, and other attacks. Will the student ever use all the strikes from a particular kata in a self-defense situation? Probably not. But the movements of a kata are like golf clubs. Every golf club has its purpose. Some are for driving the ball over a great distance, some are for chipping the ball, some are for putting, etc. However, the professional golfer has all the clubs in his bag and is ready to use whichever one the situation calls for. This is like the martial artist who is ready to use whatever movements from his kata are necessary for his particular situation. Some katas have the student moving while executing strikes. This builds on the benefits and skill of maintaining a strong balance as well as learning and using distance with strikes in the katas.
Click to expand...
Hmm...states that a student will not use all the strikes, but at the end it states that, like a pro golfer who has all his clubs in the bag, the student will be able to use whichever move the situation calls for.


Another link.
http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_karate/iain_abernethy/ia_true_applications.html

3, Every kata move is designed for use in combat. It is important to understand that all movements within the katas are designed for use in real fights. This includes the opening and closing salutations. Although certain moves may increase strength or improve balance that is not their primary function. Their primary function is to disable an assailant in combat. In his 1974 book, ‘The Heart of Karate-do,’ Shigeru Egami wrote, “Despite a lack of complete understanding, one should not assume that the movements have no meaning or function. I advise performing the movements, thinking about them, and interpreting them in your own way, concentrating heart and soul. This is practice.” So when analysing your own kata be sure to understand that every move has a combative purpose and endeavour to understand that purpose.
Click to expand...

Looks like kata is designed for use in combat.


6, Real fights are sloppy affairs and the way the application is performed will reflect this. When performing a kata, we are practising the ‘ideal’ movement. Which is relatively easy to achieve against the thin air, but another mater entirely against another human being who is intent on doing you harm. When applying the kata’s techniques your main concern should be the movement’s effectiveness, not retaining an inch perfect performance. What is a graceful movement when performed in the kata will become rough round the edges when applied in an all out situation. The visual appearance of a technique must never be a concern – The only valid measure is whether or not the technique disabled the opponent.
Click to expand...

Hmm...interesting.
 
To further expand on what Exile has said, I did a search on Iain Abernethy. I came across some interesting reading. I doubt many will sift thru what I'm about to link, but what the hell, I'll put it out anyways. :)

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.asp

Specifically, I'm pointing to the articles titled, "The Pinan/Heian series as a fighting system" and "The basics of bunkai" There are 5 parts to one and 8 to the other.
 
The definition of kata is a prearragned set of movements. That is what it is. I have yet to meet a martial art (including military manuevers) that doesn't use prearranged sets of movements. Again, not everyone calls them that, and some refer to them as drills. But, that doesn't change what a "kata" by definition is. People are objecting to how a kata is learned/trained and not what it is in and of itself.

Bruce Lee was very vocal about putting a "name" on something too, which is what alot of the anti-kata people seem to be doing. They don't want to call any type of prearranged movement a "kata" instead they call it a drill. I understand having a problem with the rigid "do it this way, don't ask questions on what it is" mentalilty that is very prevelant in MA's but that attitude is not kata.
 
Guys first of all....Who out of all of you here actually trained in Jeet Kune Do with a person that has a direct link to Bruce Lee? Alot of your question would be answered...I think...

"The Three Stages of Cultivation"

Learn The Principle = 1) Primitive Stage: sloppy, but natural....Abide By The Principles = 2) Mechanical Stage: self and sense of freedom are lost, scientific knowledge gained......Dissolve The principles = 3) Artless or Spontaneous Stage: flowing like water, no longer confined, self expression at highest level......and there you have "IT"...



Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney
 
I have personally trained with Mr. Paul Bonner who is a certified instructor under Dan Inosanto. Mr. Bonner teaches JKD Concepts, Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Kali and I believe he's also done some Kempo.
Dan Inosanto himself once stated in an interview that the best forms man he had ever seen was Bruce Lee. I believe that I read somewhere (don't quote me until I can cite myself here) that Bruce Lee did perform his Wing Chun forms up until he passed.

Personally, (trying to play the devil's advocate here) I have always believed that martial arts is about self expression, expressing what you think and feel. This means that one person may see kata as 'the way' or 'the truth' and another may see kata as 'nothing but a waste of time. But that, to me, ladies and gentleman is the greatest aspect of martial arts, that we have the freedom to practice and interpret what we want anyway we want.

Appologies for my rant I've gone a couple days without sleep it's probably made me rather grumpy!

Cheers!
​
 
The question was "is there Kata in JKD", not is Kata any good.

Bruce practiced, and had his students practice Si Lum Tao and a wooden dummy form. So, Kata is a part of Jun Fan JKD, but may or may not be a part of any particular person's expression of JKD ie Burton Richardson's JKD Unlimited does not include those forms - though I'm sure Burton himself did forms as part of his training coming up.
 
Hello, Kata's refer to a set of movements introduce by karate teachers from Okinawa. These are preset and percise movements. They have names Heian or Pinan. (refering to Karate only here).

Which most of us familiar with today when we talk about "Kata".
These are what we use to describe this particular training methods.

Drills,practice boxing skills...is NOT call or refer to as a KATA!

THANKS :Newguy12 for sharing that "came across interesting reading"
about Kata's and the history. I really enjoy reading those articles..and it hasn't change my mine a bit...any history of Karate is worth knowing about...Thank-you.

Kata's in Karate is refering to Heian or Pinan Kata...usually done by oneself against NO partners...against imagine enemies. Alone, by oneself, can be done as a group thing...............Aloha

All alone on this one....well it feels like it!
 
I don't know about Bruce Lee, although as others say he did Wing Chun which has forms.

I dont' know Mr. Inosanto very well, but I have talked to him a little bit. He has studied and practices an astounding variety of martial arts. Some of them, like boxing and Brazilian Ju Jitsu don't have forms. He also practice Taiji, Krabi Krabong, Silat and several of the FMA forms which do. I've seen him perform juru juru and Krabi Krabong routines. He does them spectacularly.
 
Dan Inosanto is differently a teachers, teacher.....There's much more than just the martial arts, but the culture as well behind it.....Dan has been a leader in that also....



Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney
 
Im very much a fan of Sifu Inosanto, he has not only one of the best backgrounds in many styles of martial arts, but he also continues in the path of Jeet Kune Do by still learning and adding more to his renowned arsenal.

This topic was about KATA's in JKD, so I would just like to comment on it.

Bruce Lee changed his opinion on kata's during his different periods between his School in Oakland, and finally in Seatle.

Jun Fan was was primarily based on the Wing Chun, as Bruce Lee thought it was the most effective style at that point in his life. He knew 2 forms of Wing Chun, and taught his students these forms in his school in Oakland.

Bruce would later learn and study western boxing, fencing, savate and many other styles. His approach was to study and obtain the essence of each style, and encorporate it into his own.

Jeet Kune Do is a art of the totality of these concepts. Pure classical Kata's were not encluded in Jeet Kune Do, unless you count the 2 forms he learned by Yip Man in Wing Chun.
 
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