Is there "KATA"S in JKD?

[still learning]

Hello, NOT sure if this has been ask before? ....Did Bruce Lee believe in teaching Kata's?

Does Dan Insanto believe in Kata's too?

Is there "Kata's" in JKD?

and if NOT why? .............Aloha

 

[simplicity]

No there is no Kata's in JKD.....Bruce Lee didn't believe in prearragement movement...




Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney

 

[Shawn]

Jun Fan Gung Fu includes a few forms - like the Wooden Dummy and Si Lum Tao, but in general most JKD schools don't bother with forms. I believe you can learn the forms at the Inosanto Academy, but remember Guro Dan mentioning something about most of his guys not being interested.

For myself, I enjoy doing forms - and enjoyment is reason enough. I think Si Lum Tao can help new students with correct elbow placement.

The forms argument (pro/con) is a long standing one.

Bruce may have moved away from forms practice but they were a part of his journey.

Shawn

 

[still learning]

Jun Fan Gung Fu includes a few forms - like the Wooden Dummy and Si Lum Tao, but in general most JKD schools don't bother with forms. I believe you can learn the forms at the Inosanto Academy, but remember Guro Dan mentioning something about most of his guys not being interested.

For myself, I enjoy doing forms - and enjoyment is reason enough. I think Si Lum Tao can help new students with correct elbow placement.

The forms argument (pro/con) is a long standing one.

Bruce may have moved away from forms practice but they were a part of his journey.

Shawn

Hello, "Thank-you" .....MY Thoughts's :Forms or Kata's that involves contact ...seems to gives more real feelings and reactions on the body and mind like training on the Woodon dummy and Si Lum Tao.

Bruce Lee view on Kata? .....as well as the many others who feel this way will come to light! Contact training is one of the faster ways for learning the martial arts

Last night I was teaching kids to block ...first we practice just the forms.....than the stick was use.......totally different reactions...many of the kids didn't block like the forms, many were startle when a real weapon was present....had to re-teach them again.............Aloha

 

[Primal Kuen]

That's crazy to hear another art performing the Si Lum Tau form...but I guess it makes sense, with Bruce's WC background. I wonder if he changed it at all....

 

[terryl965]

Hello, "Thank-you" .....MY Thoughts's :Forms or Kata's that involves contact ...seems to gives more real feelings and reactions on the body and mind like training on the Woodon dummy and Si Lum Tao.

Bruce Lee view on Kata? .....as well as the many others who feel this way will come to light! Contact training is one of the faster ways for learning the martial arts

Last night I was teaching kids to block ...first we practice just the forms.....than the stick was use.......totally different reactions...many of the kids didn't block like the forms, many were startle when a real weapon was present....had to re-teach them again.............Aloha

I do not understand this comit if you teach the block correctly it dhould not matter if it is a punch, kick or stick, the block is still a block.

And to answer your question no Bruce Lee tought no forms, to any of his students but that does not mean he did not learn any before he was on his own.

 

[still learning]

I do not understand this comit if you teach the block correctly it dhould not matter if it is a punch, kick or stick, the block is still a block.

And to answer your question no Bruce Lee tought no forms, to any of his students but that does not mean he did not learn any before he was on his own.

Hello, The kids are under 10 years old. It is easy to teach to raise their arms for blocks.

Just that when we added a stick to block? their minds saw the stick and they where more focus on not getting hit...than blocking.....

Try for yourself? .....just practiceing blocking ? ..now against an attacker.....ajustments must be made? (against a stick/bat) you will want to block the arm.........try it! at full speed too! ....Aloha

PS: Bruce Lee learn forms early because his Sensi taught forms...and "Bruce" just follow....until one day he realize to himself...that Kata's was not useful for his training.

Kinda like: that is the way I learn it...and that is how I teach it today....NO questions...just following the past ways...

 

[still learning]

Hello, When you practice forms? ..Kata's? ....it has a purpose....?

When fightng for real or training at full speed...anything goes...NO rules...those forms and kata's are useless.

The way you train is the way you will fight.....Ever see people fight like a Kata? ...and move like a Kata? ...on the streets? ....most likely NOT!

That is why other sports NEVER uses Kata's like training. Remember Practicing , training is NOT Kata! ..........Aloha

 

[terryl965]

Hello, The kids are under 10 years old. It is easy to teach to raise their arms for blocks.

Just that when we added a stick to block? their minds saw the stick and they where more focus on not getting hit...than blocking.....

Try for yourself? .....just practiceing blocking ? ..now against an attacker.....ajustments must be made? (against a stick/bat) you will want to block the arm.........try it! at full speed too! ....Aloha

PS: Bruce Lee learn forms early because his Sensi taught forms...and "Bruce" just follow....until one day he realize to himself...that Kata's was not useful for his training.

Kinda like: that is the way I learn it...and that is how I teach it today....NO questions...just following the past ways...

I also teach childern and we do not have these problems when it comes to blocks maybe it is the way it is being tought to them. We always tell them and show them with the rubber short stick what we are talking about when we are teaching. Maybe you should invest in them and also those rubber chucks, they still will string but it makes them a ware od how to block with an instrument coming at them.

As far as Bruce Lee until he left his instructor he was doing poomsae or Kata's the way of that instructor, to my knowledge he never said they was worthless just not practicle in the system he was teaching. Aloha. Remember you can only truely get value out of something that you beleived to have value in.

 

[terryl965]

Hello, When you practice forms? ..Kata's? ....it has a purpose....?

When fightng for real or training at full speed...anything goes...NO rules...those forms and kata's are useless.

The way you train is the way you will fight.....Ever see people fight like a Kata? ...and move like a Kata? ...on the streets? ....most likely NOT!

That is why other sports NEVER uses Kata's like training. Remember Practicing , training is NOT Kata! ..........Aloha

To you they are worthless to other it is a way of practice, I have been involved in Martial Arts for over forty years and have found them to be useful. Each there own. have a wonderful day. Aloha.

 

[MJS]

Didn't we cover kata in this thread?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55412

 

[exile]

Hello, When you practice forms? ..Kata's? ....it has a purpose....?

When fightng for real or training at full speed...anything goes...NO rules...those forms and kata's are useless.

The way you train is the way you will fight.....Ever see people fight like a Kata? ...and move like a Kata? ...on the streets? ....most likely NOT!

That is why other sports NEVER uses Kata's like training. Remember Practicing , training is NOT Kata! ..........Aloha

Migod... people have spent hours' worth of posting time explaining to you that kata training contains techniques to be used `full speed'; that you train the content of the kata, not the performance of the kata, that a kata is a compilation of three to five separate defensive scenarios, any one of which can be brutally effective if executed with efficiency and dispatch, and that other sports do PLENTY of what, in the karate-based arts, are called kata... and give you references to a huge literature on the combat application of kata... and you then post something like this suggesting that none of it, not one little bit, has sunk in. I'm staggered. Not one little bit of all the detailed responses to the series of misunderstandings I've cited above has registered...

Doesn't it begin to seem strange to you, still_learning, that every time you post things like the sequence of sentence fragments in the above post, you get a whole barrage of responses from people in the arts pointing out to you in detail where you're mistaken in your view of kata? Are you hoping that if you repeat these claims and statements long enough, sheer repetition will convince us of their truth? If so, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. All you are succeeding in doing is advertising the fact that either you do not read the detailed replies you get, or you do not assimilate the information those replies contain. The impression that gets communicated is that it's a waste of time responding to you—just as it's a waste of time responding to a tape-player repeating on a loop the message that the earth is flat, because in neither case can any kind of response make a difference.

 

[still learning]

Migod... people have spent hours' worth of posting time explaining to you that kata training contains techniques to be used `full speed'; that you train the content of the kata, not the performance of the kata, that a kata is a compilation of three to five separate defensive scenarios, any one of which can be brutally effective if executed with efficiency and dispatch, and that other sports do PLENTY of what, in the karate-based arts, are called kata... and give you references to a huge literature on the combat application of kata... and you then post something like this suggesting that none of it, not one little bit, has sunk in. I'm staggered. Not one little bit of all the detailed responses to the series of misunderstandings I've cited above has registered...

Doesn't it begin to seem strange to you, still_learning, that every time you post things like the sequence of sentence fragments in the above post, you get a whole barrage of responses from people in the arts pointing out to you in detail where you're mistaken in your view of kata? Are you hoping that if you repeat these claims and statements long enough, sheer repetition will convince us of their truth? If so, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. All you are succeeding in doing is advertising the fact that either you do not read the detailed replies you get, or you do not assimilate the information those replies contain. The impression that gets communicated is that it's a waste of time responding to you—just as it's a waste of time responding to a tape-player repeating on a loop the message that the earth is flat, because in neither case can any kind of response make a difference.

Hello, I remember many things that was taught to be true....in time new science comes along...and changes things. The future will show people like me will be proven right or wrong.

Bruce Lee's -NOT sure why he didn't believe in Kata as his training progress many years later...wish he was here to address his belief's on this use of Kata's.

I use to believe everything that was taught to me growing up.as the truths...than one day.....you learn lessons...and start to see things differently and questions the many things out there...Why?

Kata's was one of those....where my beliefs change.....Real fighting changes the way you train too....Aloha

PS: Every soldier who go to combat training...and comes back saying it is NOT same as training.....(lots of fears) to deal with..same with street fights!

AS they say: "Hard head" ....stubborn....even hopeless at times...Is this ME! ........Simile ....

 

[terryl965]

Hello, I remember many things that was taught to be true....in time new science comes along...and changes things. The future will show people like me will be proven right or wrong.

Bruce Lee's -NOT sure why he didn't believe in Kata as his training progress many years later...wish he was here to address his belief's on this use of Kata's.

I use to believe everything that was taught to me growing up.as the truths...than one day.....you learn lessons...and start to see things differently and questions the many things out there...Why?

Kata's was one of those....where my beliefs change.....Real fighting changes the way you train too....Aloha

PS: Every soldier who go to combat training...and comes back saying it is NOT same as training.....(lots of fears) to deal with..same with street fights!

AS they say: "Hard head" ....stubborn....even hopeless at times...Is this ME! ........Simile ....

I have come to relize you will never see the light, so i hope you training continues in the direction you wish it to be. Aloha

 

[punisher73]

That is why other sports NEVER uses Kata's like training. Remember Practicing , training is NOT Kata! ..........Aloha

I have never met a martial art that didn't use kata, they just don't always call it that. Kata just means a prearranged set of movement. Boxers use katas all day long when they are learning their combos. Look at katas, you have a series of 3-5 movements before a change to address a different situation. A boxer practices 3-5 movements between his defensive movements/offensive movement. The difference is that a boxer is only dealing with a person right in front of him who is only punching. He doesn't need to address grabs, attacks from behind etc.

So, I would say that "yes" JKD does have katas, they just aren't labeled as such. A kata teaches a logical sequence of movements, otherwise your strikes would have no purpose and you would not be economical in your movement/approach which is something Bruce Lee stressed.

 

[simplicity]

I'll say it again guys, there are no Kata's in Jeet kune Do....Here is something Bruce Lee wrote...I'm taking about Jeet Kune Do...


Bruce Lee said:

"When you get down to it,real combat is not fixed and is much "ALIVE". The fancy mess (aform of paralysis) solidifies and conditions what was once fluid, and when you look at it realistically, it is nothing but a blind devotion to systematic uselessness of practining routines or stunts that lead nowhere....Stylists, instead of looking directly into the fact, cling to forms (theories) and go on entangling themselves further and further, finally putting themselves into an inextricable snare...The man who is clear and simple does not choose...What is, is. Action based on an ideal is obviously the action of choice and such action is not liberating. On the contrary, it creates further resistance, further conflict..Assume plible awareness...Set patterns, incapable of adaptability, of pliability, only offer a better cage...The truth is outside of all patterns..."

p.s. I hope this helps...

Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney (2nd Gen. JKD Instructor)

 

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

I'm sure I'm jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire so here I go...

I honestly respect Bruce Lee I do, I think he was a great martial artist and revolutionary in what he taught and what he believed.

Now comes the part I'm sure some people are going to hate me for. In the 20+ years since Bruce Lee's passing martial artists have met and, dare I say it, surpassed Bruce Lee. I'm not saying that every martial artist out there is as fast as Bruce Lee or as talented a martial artist etc, I'm just saying that when it comes to concepts, ideas, and what not, we have surpassed what Bruce Lee did.

My argument with Bruce Lee's hatred of kata's was, had he seen and studied every kata around? I understand he especially had a hatred for classical Chinese forms, for he considered them "too flashy" etc. I personally study traditional Karate kata where the moves are hard, fast, and directly to the point, and we don't use them as a "way" or a "set fighting style" but more an encyclopedia of moves that are available. We then take those moves and put them into practical use through kumite practice etc.

I agree with what Punisher stated, kata is a prearranged set of movements, be they a simple set of boxing combos or a complicated set of classical Chinese martial arts movements. So to say that JKD has absolutely NO kata's is, in my opinion, a misleading statement.
​

 

[punisher73]

The truth is outside of all patterns

I hate to say it, but this is one of those statements that sounds good but how is it that you actually apply it? Think about it....if it was truly outside of ALL patterns then you could not understand anything about it because there would be no reference point/pattern to find a way. By quantifying something you can understand part of it's essence enough that when your plan isn't going completely as planned you can make the necessary adjustments.

The man who is clear and simple does not choose...What is, is. Action based on an ideal is obviously the action of choice and such action is not liberating.

If you don't know a preplanned response to a stimulus it doesn't matter "what is, is" there is still no program to run the computer so to speak. The only way to get to what he is talking about is planned responses to a stimuli until it becomes unconscious action. Too many people read Bruce Lee's philosophy and try and take his end product and skip the inbetween steps of how to get there.

The best pianist in the world starts by learning preplanned scales and songs until they can develop their own ability to play and write music. But, by learning the other stuff they also learn what notes clash and don't harmonize. Just banging on the keys randomly, while creating noise does not make music.

 

[Andrew Green]

I have never met a martial art that didn't use kata, they just don't always call it that.

No, plenty don't. Unless you change the meaning of the word to fit what everyone does. The way you rare looking at it every physical activity uses kata, and that is clearly not the definition of the word that was met when the question was asked.

JKD does not do kata, Bruce was very vocal about his thoughts on them not being a good tool for what he was teaching.

 

[Spartan]

Grappling arts, such as bjj and sambo, don't use kata either.