Is there any vulnerability in Wing Chun?

[Flying Crane]

Not sure what that had to do with my post, to which this was a response. I can't find your rhino guard in Wing Chun either, though whether that is good or bad is open to debate. No flying omoplatas either.

A few years ago I saw a video on YouTube of a wing chun guy doing punches with a very exaggerated rotation. I don't know what lineage he was from, I've never seen any other wing chun guy do it quite like that. I guess it's out there.

 

[Martial D]

A few years ago I saw a video on YouTube of a wing chun guy doing punches with a very exaggerated rotation. I don't know what lineage he was from, I've never seen any other wing chun guy do it quite like that. I guess it's out there.

Keep in mind a lot of what is on YouTube is flat out fake.

 

[ShortBridge]

Of course there are vulnerabilities in Wing Chun.

 

[LFJ]

Can you find "通背(Tong Bei) - one arm" concept in the WC system? When you punch right hand out, you pull left hand back. Both of your arms can be considered as one arm.

Not in VT.

Because when you retract your right arm you are not protecting your space.
As indicated by the dotted white line, you are leaving a huge gap when retracting.

That's why VT doesn't do chain punches retracting each one straight back to the elbow.

Very easy to cut into.

Also, the rotation is not done, because;

1. the protected line is opened up by turning past it, and continuous attack is interrupted.
2. it's actually something we use against the opponent to attain flank position.

If you twist your body and punch out one arm as far as you can while pulling the other arm back as far as you can, you can have more reach.

This is just "common sense" but some people want to say, "my style doesn't do this".

Not because of "style", but for intelligent consideration in fighting.

 

[anerlich]

"you can have more reach."

Just because you can, doesn't always mean you should.

Trying to make the opponent overreach or over-commit is a pretty common strategy. He'll be very happy if you help him.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

No person is perfect. Every person can be vulnerable and has room to improve their skills and knowledge.

Wing chun is not an entity. It is simply an approach to training. Some people understand the methods better than others, some variants have more curriculum than others, but it boils down to the person. No person is perfect.

I'll add to that ...

No approach to training is perfect.

No approach to training is right for all people.
No approach to training is right for all purposes and contexts.
No approach to training is perfect even for the person and purpose and context it is best suited to. Martial arts and training methods are created by people and as you noted, no person is perfect. Every art and training method has room for improvement.

 

[geezer]

...Also, the rotation is not done, because;

1. the protected line is opened up by turning past it, and continuous attack is interrupted.
2. it's actually something we use against the opponent to attain flank position.

Not because of "style", but for intelligent consideration in fighting.

LFJ's remarks above ring true for the YM-VT branch I train as well. If you deliver a long-range, "push-pull" punch turning and "blading" the body --as John described in post #15, you lose your VT/WC wedging geometry and become more vulnerable to counterpunches. Boxers deal with this by tucking the chin behind the shoulder and adjusting to a higher guard:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CYbNdvNCBW8/UGiPdRKJ6eI/AAAAAAAAADc/dwqW4XzxO7k/s1600/boxing+stance.jpg

These adjustments require a completely different structure and stance, and would conflict with your trained VT/WC responses. The VT I train is conceived as an integrated system. Mixing-in something so different would not yield good results.

On the other hand, if you reserve this "boxing-like" approach specifically for a longer range, you could use it effectively, just as you can switch from VT/WC to grappling when going to the ground.

I have been able to do this to a certain degree myself, transitioning from my Escrima to VT, and from VT to grappling. I don't consider it gap filling, but just using the best tools I have for each situation. Others will make different choices.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'll add to that ...

No approach to training is perfect.

No approach to training is right for all people.
No approach to training is right for all purposes and contexts.
No approach to training is perfect even for the person and purpose and context it is best suited to. Martial arts and training methods are created by people and as you noted, no person is perfect. Every art and training method has room for improvement.

Yeah, I can agree with that.

I think then that we all decide how much time and energy we are willing to spend on our research and training, and how well it fits our purposes.

For me, as example, I have a job from which I am being laid off, I am preparing to go back to school full time, I have a wife and a three-year old son who need my time and energy, and until my lay-off is complete I have been taking night classes in preparation knowing that this is on the horizon. And, i have a side job, renting a portion of my home to make ends meet in the most expensive region of the nation.

So, I'm busy. It's hard to find time to train, period.

A system that makes sense to me, but may be imperfect, fits my needs and is all I have time and energy for. The last thing I am looking to do is spend time looking to fill any "holes" and try to bring myself up to the level of a professional fighter. I don't have the time or energy, or desire to do that. What I do serves my purposes well.

I'll add to that ...

No approach to training is perfect.

No approach to training is right for all people.
No approach to training is right for all purposes and contexts.
No approach to training is perfect even for the person and purpose and context it is best suited to. Martial arts and training methods are created by people and as you noted, no person is perfect. Every art and training method has room for improvement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not because of "style", but for intelligent consideration in fighting.

If you can

- cut your opponent's head off, why do you bother to stab him 5 times?
- knock your opponent down by 1 punch, why do you bother to punch him 5 times on his face?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"you can have more reach."

Just because you can, doesn't always mean you should.

Trying to make the opponent overreach or over-commit is a pretty common strategy. He'll be very happy if you help him.

Many years ago, in one sparring, I jumped in and threw right punch at my opponent's face. My opponent steps back and the distance was a bit too far. Since I had my right leg forward, my left hand was too far to reach to his face, I moved my left leg behind my right leg (exactly the same move at 0.41 - 0.43 in the following clip), leaned my upper body forward, twisted and extended my body to the maximum, my right punch could finally land on my opponent's face and ended that fight. That extra 3 inches reach made a big difference in that challenge fight.

0.41 - 0.43.

On the other hand, if you reserve this "boxing-like" approach specifically for a longer range, you could use it effectively, just as you can switch from VT/WC to grappling when going to the ground.

Sometime, you should be able to tell whether or not it's safe to extend your arm fully. When your opponent moves back, and lose his ground. it should be safe to do so. IMO, it's better to have the ability to do both. In the above example, if I followed the WC principle, I would give up that right punch.

 

[KPM]

I am preparing to go back to school full time, I have a wife and a three-year old son who need my time and energy, .

Good for you for going back to school! And I know from first hand experience that it isn't easy after being in the work force for awhile! Good luck man!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I am preparing to go back to school full time,...

After my retirement, I did consider seriously to go back to school to finish my PhD degree that I had almost finished. I then asked myself, "What can I do with that new PhD degree?" I soon decided to spend the rest of my life in MA and nothing else.

 

[Flying Crane]

Good for you for going back to school! And I know from first hand experience that it isn't easy after being in the work force for awhile! Good luck man!

Thank you! I will say tho that I am excited about the change. I am looking to go into the hard sciences, physics and/or biology, and for the last year I have been taking night classes in math to catch up with that background and be ready for calculus. I am enjoying being in school again, and I know that I am a much better student now at the age of 46 than I was in my early 20s.

 

[Flying Crane]

After my retirement, I did consider seriously to go back to school to finish my PhD degree that I had almost finished. I then asked myself, "What can I do with that new PhD degree?" I soon decided to spend the rest of my life in MA and nothing else.

Well, I'm not retired yet, I've got a couple decades left so I figure it's just enough time to make a good run of it.

 

[Nobody Important]

Thank you! I will say tho that I am excited about the change. I am looking to go into the hard sciences, physics and/or biology, and for the last year I have been taking night classes in math to catch up with that background and be ready for calculus. I am enjoying being in school again, and I know that I am a much better student now at the age of 46 than I was in my early 20s.

Congrats! It's a tough road balancing family, school & work, but I'm sure you can do it. Just about ready to graduate with my second science degree, and already scoping out schools for my masters. I totally agree with you, I'm a much better student now than I was 20 years ago, kinda weird though graduating at the same time a my middle daughter, lol. I wish you the best of luck!

 

[Flying Crane]

Congrats! It's a tough road balancing family, school & work, but I'm sure you can do it. Just about ready to graduate with my second science degree, and already scoping out schools for my masters. I totally agree with you, I'm a much better student now than I was 20 years ago, kinda weird though graduating at the same time a my middle daughter, lol. I wish you the best of luck!

Thanks, and good luck to you too!

I have a bachelors degree in social sciences, I fell into the legal and finance world and have worked there for over twenty years. It worked well enough, but was never fulfilling. It provided a stable income but I was never passionate about it. Now with a layoff and severance, I am revisiting old interests that I had when I was young, realizing that maybe I didn't need to be intimidated by the math and science if I am actually interested in it. It is exciting!

 

[anerlich]

Good for you for going back to school! And I know from first hand experience that it isn't easy after being in the work force for awhile! Good luck man!

After my retirement, I did and have continued to do a number of online courses from prestigious universities. I scored in the top 30 of an Android development course of four semesters with over 3000 students and won a prize as a result. I've done courses in Exercise Physiology and Psychology as well.

What can I do with this? Not really the point. I could have devoted all of my retirement to martial arts as well, but what would I have done with that? The process and the learning are where the true gold is. I train and teach martial arts four days a week, but I am glad that's not all I do. There's to much other interesting stuff out there.

I'm a student for life in the martial arts for sure. But I have other interests, and wish to be a student of them also. You only get time around to do everything..

Best of luck to my fellow students out there.

 

[anerlich]

Sometime, you should be able to tell whether or not it's safe to extend your arm fully. When your opponent moves back, and lose his ground. it should be safe to do so. IMO, it's better to have the ability to do both. In the above example, if I followed the WC principle, I would give up that right punch.

Yeah, there can be a time for that. You initially made it sound like it was some secret weapon that would nullify everything.

 

[Yeung]

Ranges, grappling, inability to force an assailant to fight that are most comfortable and familiar to the practitioner, not knowing other styles, and not knowing various developments are general issues applicable to any Chinese Martial Arts. In this thread, Issues of turning and full extension of arm are relevant in differentiating from Tong Bei. But these are not vulnerability specific to Wing Chun.

I quite like to use the sets of three rings trapping the moon (san huan tao yue 三环套月) in Gong Li Quan to test the skills of Wing Chun practitioners. But incompetent practitioner of any art does not represent the art itself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I quite like to use the sets of three rings trapping the moon (san huan tao yue 三环套月) in Gong Li Quan to test the skills of Wing Chun practitioners. But incompetent practitioner of any art does not represent the art itself.

A striking MA system should include more that just jab and cross. It should include jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side strike, hay-maker, ...

The "三环套月(san huan tao yue) - three rings trapping the moon" is used to train a back fist that can turn into a wrist grabbing, and then set up for the next hammer fist. It's circular and not linear. IMO, all MA systems should have both linear moves and circular moves.