Is "the system" more then the sum of its parts

[JTKenpo]

"I agree

asides : not ALL our combos are changed! We still do the same #6 LOL and many more I'm sure

but is "the system" just "the techniques"? Or is it more? sorry, wrong thread for that " Davidcc

This is from another thread and thought David was right, deserved its own thread.

This topic always drives me nuts. I call it the Bruce Lee syndrum. Let me explain before driving to my house with pitch forks and torchs. In Tao of Jeet Kune Do he states that system of no system, technique with no technique....
People see that and think ow I don't have to study a real martial art just keep fighting and I'll be like BRuce. Yah no.

I believe that no the system is not just the technique BUT you have to learn the techniques to "get" the system. ie learn your abc's before righting your first novel.

Thoughts?

 

[MJS]

"I agree

asides : not ALL our combos are changed! We still do the same #6 LOL and many more I'm sure

but is "the system" just "the techniques"? Or is it more? sorry, wrong thread for that " Davidcc

This is from another thread and thought David was right, deserved its own thread.

This topic always drives me nuts. I call it the Bruce Lee syndrum. Let me explain before driving to my house with pitch forks and torchs. In Tao of Jeet Kune Do he states that system of no system, technique with no technique....
People see that and think ow I don't have to study a real martial art just keep fighting and I'll be like BRuce. Yah no.

I believe that no the system is not just the technique BUT you have to learn the techniques to "get" the system. ie learn your abc's before righting your first novel.

Thoughts?

Makes sense to me. I've always said that the techniques are simply the foundation to build off of. They are the next progression, so to speak. New students start off, usually in a static position, executing various punches, kicks and blocks. Eventually, actually hopefully, those things will be done with movement, such as hitting a focus mitt. From there, we advance to actual techniques, which are the basics put together in a specific way, for a specific purpose.

Eventually, the goal should be to react without having to think. When that punch is coming, we shouldn't be thinking, "Hmm....combo 6, 8, or 11? Attacking Mace, Thundering Hammers??" No, we should react. Does our reaction have to look Kenpo? IMO, no. I could simply step offline, parry, and punch to the face, while at the same time, using Kenpo principles.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

So glad you started this thread, as this is one of my favorite rants. The system of American Kenpo is absolutely NOT the techniques, forms, sets, etc. Rather, it is how you move whilst in the midst of these, and your understanding of the movements.

The poopy part about mentioning names online, is: If you do, you're name dropping. If you don't, you're making it up and lack cred. There's a rather infamous name dropper out there who I would rather not be equivocated with, so I'll opt for diminished cred....particluarly since the 3 guys I'm gonna mention all frequent this site, and can chime in if they like.

3 guys; 3 techs. All different from "mainstream" understandings and deliveries.

1 was a travelling companion of Mr. Parkers on the road, and one of the most unfamous and unsung protege's of Mr. Parkers. We're all discussing Repeating Mace one day at the Long Beach International Karate tournament. He starts to demo, and looks completely different from the competitors in the way he moves, compared to the uber-athletic & motion-dramatic competitors who have come from around the globe. His movements weigh more; checks don't just lay on top of a body part, they blow through them, causing injury as a secondary strike. They also frictionally pull the bad guy into an incoming major strike, adding the impact of a guided collision into the soup. His body whips each movement, adding significant velocity and mass to each motion. So, rather than a hammerfist or backnuckle cutting a short figure 8, they are screaming in for their targets from whipping motions that speed them up and make them land hard. Good for the uke, he's pulling stuff. You can tell by watching (if you've ever been around Mr. Parker), that if he didn't pull them, uke would be broken up pretty good.

But the choreography for the technique would have read exactly the same as the newbies 3 feet away doing it without any whipping, any directional harmony, or any force multipliers.

Another guy, sam ting. In a couple of books and vids by Mr. P. Teaches kenpo with some "tweaks" that irk others in kenpoland. Trouble is, his stuff is solid. And he whips, and stomps, and slaps, and "pccchhhsss!" just like the old man. And when he actually bothers to get up and move , it's a lot like watching Mr. P. do his thing again. Large framed, he sets his mass in motion with the same kick-starts Mr. Parker used. His techniqques are filled with minor "inserts" (to use a kenpo term) that have great effects for making the kenpoist stronger while breaking the other guy down. But his five swords could be watched by someone who didn't know what he was doing, copied by them, and lack all of the richness and detail that makes it an excellent 5-star gourmet soup, instead of a cup of top ramen.

Another guy, presenting Raining Claw to a small group. Points out that the claw is designed to obscure the rising backnuckle. Meaning, can't see the right fist coming, because the left hand is messing with their vision. Now, typically, you see the first 3 moves of raining claw done in 3 beats...block, palm-heel/rake, then fist. For this guy? The last 2 moves are executed at the same time, left hand raking down while right hand drives up. 2 beats. Shortly, consolidated into one, by bleeding them altogether, but not losing power because it's all driving from the hips.

Buncha profs nationwide have access to the same journals...why didn't they figger it out? Reads the same as a sequence. Better still, bug this guy about timing of moves in the extensions, and some of them start making sense fo rthe first time ever. All by paying attention to details most gloss over, hoping never to be held accountable to.

Both feet may get put down while a hand grabs the shoulder & pulls slightly, but the difference about which foot lands first, and when/where on the shoulder the hand grabs can make the difference between the guy just standing there while we shuffle dance with our feet, or being yanked off his feet and placed into a barrage of knees while we change our stances.

Kenpo is not the choreography; it's what you do while in the midst off it that counts. That takes study, practice, guidance, and time to gain skill and understanding, with time. You miht get the main dance moves from a vid, but these details that bring the system to life and make it a brilliant entity unto itself ar not available via video. Or 1 hour, twice a week.

 

[tshadowchaser]

When all is said and done the system is a mind set and/or a combination of thought put forth by the founder and those that lead the system and are passed down to those that study