Is that like 'let them eat cake'?

[ballen0351]

Just for fun ...
http://m.good.is/posts/google-doesn-t-pay-taxes

Sorry, what was that BS about the rich keeping their money?

Its their money they earned it why shouldnt they keep it?

But speaking of not paying taxes:

WASHINGTON — Tax Day is a dreaded deadline for millions of Americans, but for nearly half of U.S. households, it's simply somebody else's problem.
About 47% will pay no federal income taxes for 2009. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability. That's according to projections by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research organization.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2010-04-07-income-taxes_N.htm

Maybe they wouldnt waist my money if they had "some skin in the game"

 

[K-man]

our jails are full of criminals. You know how I know? Because I put a bunch of them there.

Ah! If that were only the case!

8. Social class and incarceration in the US


In the U.S. in 2004:


28% of state and federal prisoners were unemployed in the month before their arrest. The national unemployment rate at the time was 5.5%. So the inmate rate was six times the national average.


88% of state prisoners and 80% of federal prisoners had a high school education or less. The national average for adults (over 18 years of age) was half that – 48%. Inmates are twice the national average.


70% of state and 58% of federal prisoners had an income of less than $2000 in the month prior to arrest. That means they had an annual income of less than $24000. Median personal income in 2004 was about $34,000. So about 2/3 of prisoners had incomes that were at least 1/3 below the median. By any reasonable measure (though not by unreasonable official measures) that is real poverty for households, and just scraping by for an individual. (source)


The criminal justice system in the U.S doesn’t only target people of color, but also poor people. Not surprising perhaps given the substantial overlap between these two groups.

http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/...edom/statistics-on-prisoner-population-rates/

And, even mor confronting ...

A central part of the mythology of the criminal justice system in the United States is that everyone is treated equally, regardless of his or her race or class. The concept that no one is above the law is a noble one. Like many good ideas, reality usually lags far behind the rhetoric.


Recent years have seen a growing criticism of the criminal justice system on the flawed premise that that the system itself is racist. Proponents of this position support their argument by pointing to statistics that show that black men make up 6% of the national population but almost half of the nation's prison population. Or that at any given time one third of the U.S. population of black men is under criminal justice control, either in prison, jail, probation or parole. (See David Cole's No Equal Justice for a detailed overview of this position.) The end result: a stunning and disproportionately large percentage of black men under criminal justice control, is taken as prima facie evidence that the very system is inherently racist, at least in its outcome.


No one, it seems, is willing to discuss the role that class plays in determining who does and does not go to prison. If the law prohibits rich and poor alike from stealing bread, and both steal bread, how come only the poor go to prison for doing so? The proponents of the institutional racism theory do not claim that rich blacks and Latinos are being herded into prison and jail in vast numbers, because they are not. And what about the whites in prison? Do they count for nothing? White prisoners tend to share one thing with their black and Hispanic compatriots: poverty. Most prisoners report incomes of less than $8,000 a year in the year prior to coming to prison. A majority were unemployed at the time of their arrest. Tellingly, in a society that measures everything, no government statistics are kept on pre incarceration earnings and employment histories. Few researchers seem interested in proving the obvious. [For more on this topic, see Crime and Punishment in America: Why the Solutions to America's Most Stubborn Social Crisis Have not Worked and What Will, by Elliott Curry.]
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/(X(...?articleid=6070&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

You might believe your jails are full of criminals but I think it runs a lot deeper than that.

 

[ballen0351]

Ah! If that were only the case!



And, even mor confronting ...



You might believe your jails are full of criminals but I think it runs a lot deeper than that.

Really? Ive been a cop for many years Ive never seen the charge for "being poor" in any law book. Seen plenty of other laws but never "being poor"

 

[K-man]

Its their money they earned it why shouldnt they keep it?

Because in every civilised society everyone is expected to pay their fair share. Using tax havens to stop you paying your share of tax might appeal to you but most people would view it as grossly unfair to all those who do pay their share of tax.

 

[ballen0351]

Because in every civilised society everyone is expected to pay their fair share. Using tax havens to stop you paying your share of tax might appeal to you but most people would view it as grossly unfair to all those who do pay their share of tax.

They do pay more then their fair share. How about the bottom 47% that pay NOTHING................

 

[K-man]

Really? Ive been a cop for many years Ive never seen the charge for "being poor" in any law book. Seen plenty of other laws but never "being poor"

Mmm! I'm sure it doesn't say that.
Just in case you didn't get a chance to read the rest of the article I cited, here's another tidbit.

Refusing to address the role that class plays in the criminal justice system, and politics in general, makes it all but impossible to address the root causes of 2 million people behind bars in the U.S. Race and racism do play a factor, but only indirectly. To the extent that blacks and Hispanics are disproportionately poor compared to overall society, they are disproportionately represented in the prison population. Few studies have examined the correlation between race and class. One of the few that did, (cited in Elliott Currie's Crime and Punishment in America), looked at the crime, arrest and incarceration rates in a poor black neighborhood and a poor white neighborhood in Ohio. The not so surprising conclusion was that it is the poor, regardless of race, who bear the brunt of the war on crime, which sounds better than a "war on the poor." This explains why whites are in prisons and the relative absence of wealthy minorities from prisons and jails.


The unspoken reality is that in America today there exists two systems of criminal justice. One for the wealthy, which includes kid-glove investigations, lackluster prosecutions, drug treatment, light sentences and easy, if any, prison time. The other, for the poor, is one of paramilitary policing, aggressive prosecution, harsh mandatory sentences and hard time. Wealth, and the political connections inherent to wealth, not race, is the determining factor in deciding which system one gets. This is most obvious when wealthy hip-hop artists and athletes, many of them black, are charged with serious crimes. Class trumps race every time, even if the wealth is new found.

 

[K-man]

They do pay more then their fair share. How about the bottom 47% that pay NOTHING................

As I said, America has the biggest divide between rich and poor in the first world. What does it say about your society if 47% of the working population don't earn enough to pay tax?

When the tax rate for a company like Google is 35%, how come they are paying 2.4%?

 

[ballen0351]

As I said, America has the biggest divide between rich and poor in the first world. What does it say about your society if 47% of the working population don't earn enough to pay tax?

Because politicians are buying votes. They can afford to pay taxes they just dont need to as long as they keep voting for the right person. So dont complain about the top not paying "enough" when the bottom half also dont pay anything.

When the tax rate for a company like Google is 35%, how come they are paying 2.4%?

Because that's how the tax code is written. That 2.4% is still more then their fair share.
But then again Im in favor of a flat tax for all with no deductions or credits for anyone.

 

[K-man]

Because politicians are buying votes. They can afford to pay taxes they just dont need to as long as they keep voting for the right person. So dont complain about the top not paying "enough" when the bottom half also dont pay anything.

Because that's how the tax code is written. That 2.4% is still more then their fair share.
But then again Im in favor of a flat tax for all with no deductions or credits for anyone.

Perhaps it is deeper than that again ...

The U.S. Tax System Is Broken and Obsolete
JULY 26, 2013 BENJAMIN CLEMENT


The U.S. tax system is woefully unprepared to function in a global economy. We have opened up our economy to the entire world, yet we are unwilling to take the necessary steps to ensure our economic success. We need a better system.


There are multiple problems with our tax system. For one thing, it is not collecting enough revenue to run our government without going into debt. Some would say we should just cut spending, but we have real needs that must be addressed. Our infrastructure has fallen into disrepair and requires trillions of dollars in spending just to get it back to the point that it is safe and functional. Clearly we need a better way of collecting revenue.

http://economyincrisis.org/content/the-u-s-tax-system-is-broken-and-obsolete

 

[ballen0351]

Mmm! I'm sure it doesn't say that.
Just in case you didn't get a chance to read the rest of the article I cited, here's another tidbit.

Yep Ive heard that for years the war on the poor. Like I said I do this for a living and the only benefit the rich have over the poor is they can afford a better lawyer. No way around that unless you want to force private lawyers to tak eon poor clients for free. If your poor and you dont want to go to prison heres a tip DONT BREAK THE LAW.

I guess I ask to much of people to actually work hard for a living and don't break the law. Yeah Im such a bad guy lol.

 

[ballen0351]

Perhaps it is deeper than that again ...

No argument from me Ive said forever the tax code is broken. EVERYONE should be paying into it not just the top 53% but EVERYONE

 

[K-man]

Yep Ive heard that for years the war on the poor. Like I said I do this for a living and the only benefit the rich have over the poor is they can afford a better lawyer. No way around that unless you want to force private lawyers to tak eon poor clients for free. If your poor and you dont want to go to prison heres a tip DONT BREAK THE LAW.

I guess I ask to much of people to actually work hard for a living and don't break the law. Yeah Im such a bad guy lol.

Unfortunately we spend a fortune on 'legal aid' so the lawyers get rich and the poor get proper legal representation. But, it's a price we as a society are prepared to pay to ensure some sense of fairness.

 

[ballen0351]

Unfortunately we spend a fortune on 'legal aid' so the lawyers get rich and the poor get proper legal representation. But, it's a price we as a society are prepared to pay to ensure some sense of fairness.

Our systems pretty fair. For petty crimes and and alot of Felony crimes people just dont go to jail until they have been arrested many times.

 

[K-man]

Our systems pretty fair. For petty crimes and and alot of Felony crimes people just dont go to jail until they have been arrested many times.

So what is the problem. I'm not having a go at the US because we certainly have our own problems with overcrowding in the prisons and calls for harsher sentences etc.

If a society doesn't help its disadvantaged it is reasonable to assume they will commit crimes to get enough money to live on or food to survive. This is borne out if we look at the prison statistics. To support the poor costs an enormous amount of money and without fair taxes the country can't function. It really is a downward spiral and creates a whole new underclass. The article I cited earlier also had a very interesting commentary on how the prisons are being used to control society which is a really scary thought. I mean that is what happened in Russia. In China it was a little more draconian.

If the purpose of prisons is to be a tool of social control to dominate and oversee the poor and working classes who might with political consciousness and organization, pose a threat to the status quo, then the institution of prison is a resounding success. That it can trace its origins and growth to the rise of slavery further supports this. It also explains the absence of rich people, of all races, behind bars. It also explains the reticence of virtually all pundits, academics and even activists to discuss the dirty secret of American politics: class.


Class in the U.S. is almost a forbidden topic. Raise the issue in any context, whether it is tax policy, campaign finance, government subsidies to corporations and criminal justice, and the speaker is quickly dismissed as a lunatic or worse, of fomenting "class war." Never mind that class war is already being waged on the poor and the criminal justice system is the primary weapon in this war. Class looms like a hippopotamus in a swimming pool where all the dinner guests are too polite to mention its existence.
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/(X(...?articleid=6070&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

So while you are adding your share of real criminals to the prison population it seems apparent that there are a lot of minor criminals in the prisons who might do better with some other form of punishment.

 

[granfire]

Like I said its not just one. Ive seen the abuse of the system first hand. Hell Ive seen my own sister abuse the system and think its funny

And? Everyone cant be rich. Im not but I work hard and make it like most people. I dont have extra money to give away to the "poor" to buy luxury items I dont even buy

I hand them a paper and say here is the help wanted section. I help them look for a job. Unlike some that cry about the poor and do nothin, I have actually help people find work. Hell right now I volunteer at the high school at night helping people with interview skills and resume writing. Oct 11 I start a once a month program at the high school again to teach students about the same things.

Your not a jerk your just naive about our real "poor" in this country. I dont mean that in a bad way but unless your actually in these neighborhood and see what really goes on you have no idea.

Where do you live I bet there is a paper with a help wanted section in it right now

Why? Its my money hes wasting why should I not be pissed?

at least its finally being talked about

they get screwed huh ok sounds like excuses to me and you know what they say about excuses

And all of this is summed up in one sentence:

There but by the Grace of G-d I go....


In this country all but the very rich are but one minor catastrophy away from the welfare line.
Yes, my friend, that does include you!

 

[ballen0351]

And I'm telling you minor criminals need to commit a lot of crimes to end up in prison. These are not just one or two times I'm talking 10+ or more arrests and convictions before they ever step foot in a prison

 

[Big Don]

:lfao:
and it worked for elder as well, I hear.

one in a million....tough luck when you are not that one....eat dirt and like it?

Sure don't have much faith in people do you?

 

[ballen0351]

And all of this is summed up in one sentence:

There but by the Grace of G-d I go....


In this country all but the very rich are but one minor catastrophy away from the welfare line.
Yes, my friend, that does include you!

Excuses Excuses Excuses.

 

[oftheherd1]

From K-Man

The U.S. Tax System Is Broken and Obsolete
JULY 26, 2013 BENJAMIN CLEMENT


The U.S. tax system is woefully unprepared to function in a global economy. We have opened up our economy to the entire world, yet we are unwilling to take the necessary steps to ensure our economic success. We need a better system.


There are multiple problems with our tax system. For one thing, it is not collecting enough revenue to run our government without going into debt. Some would say we should just cut spending, but we have real needs that must be addressed. Our infrastructure has fallen into disrepair and requires trillions of dollars in spending just to get it back to the point that it is safe and functional. Clearly we need a better way of collecting revenue.

http://economyincrisis.org/content/t...n-and-obsolete

That sounds like a thinly veiled attempt to justify more taxes in the manner it is usually intended by those politicians who constantly demand higher taxes rather than better use of tax dollars.

So I agree we need a better way to collect taxes, such as a flat tax rate with no exceptions. I think that would bring in more taxes by the way. But I think it even more important would be to find better ways to spend tax money than buying votes with pork.

EDIT: BTW, I don't mean fixing the highway infrastructure in and of itself would be pork. But a lot of our highway tax dollars are used not only for pork, but as a whip over the states; 'comply with this law that stinks and will be unpopular, or we will hold back your share of the highway money.'

 

[oftheherd1]

So what is the problem. I'm not having a go at the US because we certainly have our own problems with overcrowding in the prisons and calls for harsher sentences etc.

If a society doesn't help its disadvantaged it is reasonable to assume they will commit crimes to get enough money to live on or food to survive. This is borne out if we look at the prison statistics. To support the poor costs an enormous amount of money and without fair taxes the country can't function. It really is a downward spiral and creates a whole new underclass. The article I cited earlier also had a very interesting commentary on how the prisons are being used to control society which is a really scary thought. I mean that is what happened in Russia. In China it was a little more draconian.

If the purpose of prisons is to be a tool of social control to dominate and oversee the poor and working classes who might with political consciousness and organization, pose a threat to the status quo, then the institution of prison is a resounding success. That it can trace its origins and growth to the rise of slavery further supports this. It also explains the absence of rich people, of all races, behind bars. It also explains the reticence of virtually all pundits, academics and even activists to discuss the dirty secret of American politics: class.


Class in the U.S. is almost a forbidden topic. Raise the issue in any context, whether it is tax policy, campaign finance, government subsidies to corporations and criminal justice, and the speaker is quickly dismissed as a lunatic or worse, of fomenting "class war." Never mind that class war is already being waged on the poor and the criminal justice system is the primary weapon in this war. Class looms like a hippopotamus in a swimming pool where all the dinner guests are too polite to mention its existence.
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/(X(1...ookieSupport=1

So while you are adding your share of real criminals to the prison population it seems apparent that there are a lot of minor criminals in the prisons who might do better with some other form of punishment.

Mind you, if you violate the law, especially if you are involved in the justice system and you misuse your power, I am all for seeing you outed, taken to court, and if there is sufficient evidence, convicted and sent to prison yourself.

But surely you can find a better quote than a one sided, self serving rant by a former prisoner.

Paul Wright is the editor and co-founder of Prison Legal News, the longest publishing independent prisoner rights magazine in US history. He is the co-author of The Celling of America: An Inside Look at the US Prison Industry (Common Courage, 1998); Prison Nation: The Warehousing of America’s Poor (Routledge, 2003) and the forthcoming Prison Profiteers: Who Makes Money from Mass Imprisonment (New Press, January, 2008). His articles have appeared in over 80 publications, ranging from Counterpunch to USA Today. He is also the former National Lawyers Guild Jailhouse Lawyer national co-vice president (1995-2008). A former prisoner, Paul was imprisoned for 17 years in Washington State until his release from prison in 2003. During and since his incarceration, he has successfully litigated a wide variety of censorship and public records issues against prison systems around the country both pro se, as a plaintiff, on behalf of other prisoners and on behalf of Prison Legal News. Paul is a former Military Policeman and a graduate of the University of Maryland with a degree in Soviet history. Paul founded PLN in 1990 while imprisoned. He is a 2005 Petra Fellow; the July, 2006, Freedom Fighter of the Month for High Times magazine, a 2007 recipient of the James Madison Award from the Washington Coalition for Open Government and the 2008 inaugural recipient of the National Lawyers Guild’s Arthur Kinoy award.

Emphasis above mine.