Is my brother putting too much stress on kids

[skribs]

I won't teach children under the age of 10,

This is probably why we're in disagreement. Your experience is vastly different to mine because your students are bordering on being teenagers and have more responsibility, while a lot of my students were just recently toddlers.

To be fair, if I started my own school I think 7 would be the youngest I'd teach. The 4-5 year olds in the little kids class are very stressful to teach.

 

[skribs]

I think you have proved my point with this. His parents obviously left it to someone else to deal with the problems they caused when sending him someone he didn't want to go.

It takes a village. When I was growing up, there were my parents, but also my teachers, my martial arts instructors, my sister (who is 14 years older than me), my grandparents, my sunday school teachers, my neighbors, and my parents friends who were all involved in raising me. It's not that my parents weren't involved. My Mom only worked part time so she could be there for me, and most of my earliest memories were of her and I playing games together. Every summer she'd have me do extra schoolwork to keep up my skills for the next year, and she was very involved in my education.

Just because a parent gets help from someone else does not mean they were a lazy or a bad parent. Just because I discipline their kid doesn't mean they don't. It just means they need help, and I happened to be the authority figure there at the time.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I totally disagree with that, children will only learn a false sense of confidence designed to fool whoever is sending them to classes. Children need to learn self discipline not obeying orders.

Bottom line if you don't make adults attend martial arts classes why would you make children take them when there are plenty of other activities they can do that will build confidence and self discipline, where the child attends willingly and learns better because they want to do it. As they say in the military one volunteer is worth ten pressed men. So many parents take the easy way out of bringing up their children, sending them to martial arts can be that easy way instead of bringing them up so they grow in confidence instead of having none then employing someone to 'give' it to them. Self discipline is the parents responsibility, they shouldn't palm it off. I won't teach anyone, child or adult that doesn't want to be in my classes. I won't aide and abet lazy parents.

I agree, and i would only force a child to go if they needed the skills in it. Kind of like you would if you worked in security in some places force yourself to do some extra training if it beenfits your job. Only if you dont literally have to drag them there each time. If its like a meh activity to them, rather than a hated one.

And plus why would you waste money on it if they arent going to learn anything from it? If they only go for a week, they still learn soemthing from it.


edit: The brain works wonders with assosiating things with bad and good, best not to make martial arts look like a punishment to them if you want them to do it.

(you also have to live with your children so better off not making them hate you )

 

[skribs]

I agree, and i would only force a child to go if they needed the skills in it. Kind of like you would if you worked in security in some places force yourself to do some extra training if it beenfits your job. Only if you dont literally have to drag them there each time. If its like a meh activity to them, rather than a hated one.

And plus why would you waste money on it if they arent going to learn anything from it? If they only go for a week, they still learn soemthing from it.


edit: The brain works wonders with assosiating things with bad and good, best not to make martial arts look like a punishment to them if you want them to do it.

(you also have to live with your children so better off not making them hate you )

Yeah, but you're known to think taking lessons isn't any better than training on your own, so...

 

[Tez3]

This is probably why we're in disagreement. Your experience is vastly different to mine because your students are bordering on being teenagers and have more responsibility, while a lot of my students were just recently toddlers.

To be fair, if I started my own school I think 7 would be the youngest I'd teach. The 4-5 year olds in the little kids class are very stressful to teach.

Sorry you are wrong there, I have taught younger children and that's why I won't now. As I also said I take Rainbows, the 5-7 age group of Girl Guides, I'm very aware of what this age group can and can't do.
Of course it's stressful teaching that young a child, they aren't ready and it's not suitable for them.

Just because a parent gets help from someone else does not mean they were a lazy or a bad parent. Just because I discipline their kid doesn't mean they don't. It just means they need help, and I happened to be the authority figure there at the time.

However it's not a village raising children, it's a commercial enterprise taking money from parents to supposedly instil discipline and confidence. Paying money to have professionals teach children instruments, dance etc would be fine because those activities have official usually government or professional bodies to ensure the standards of teaching, martial arts don't, besides they are only teaching very specific skills not emotional or psychological ones. I do not believe martial arts instructors should be 'authority' figures, they should be instructors and that's it.

 

[Headhunter]

If I'm working with a group where one doesn't want to be there. I give them a couple of chances and tell them to do it. If they ignore me and continue to cause problems I simply say to them. Do you want to sit out? Some say no and they then put the effort some say yes. So I say okay go sit down and if you want to come back in just ask. Mostly after a few minutes the kids will ask to come in then they'll actually try but some will just stay sat out and I just leave them to it and at the end I'll tell the parent they fidnt want to do it, they weren't trying and were disrupting everyone else. At the end of the day I'm not going to waste my own time and the kids who actually want to learn on some kid who's been forced there because mommy and daddy are to lazy to actually look around for an activity for the kid wants to do.

And we don't let them get away with it. I said we ignore them to not attract attention to them. If their actions are drawing that much attention on their own, and they've ignored our warnings, they get a punishment. Usually it's to sit outside and just watch instead of participating. And shortly after that we'll do something fun, like a game or obstacle course, that they miss out on. Sometimes they come back into class later in the class, other times they sit out the whole time. Sometimes they'll have a talk with my Master after class where he'll explain the rules and why they need to follow them. Usually their parents thank us for disciplining the kid and then when they go home they'll have talks with the kid about their behavior. (I haven't seen this but they've told me about them).

We never present it as an option. It's always a consequence of their behavior.[/QUOTE]
If a kid doesn't want to be there do you really think sitting them out is a punishment? To them it's a good thing and if they don't want to be there then a game or an obstacle course isn't going to magically change them wanting to be there.

When I ask kids if they want to sit out. It's a genuine question if they say they want to sit out I'm not mad at them I just okay go ahead. Because frankly I want to teach people who want to learn if they don't want to learn then there's no point in them wasting their time and energy or wasting my time teaching them something they don't to do or waste kids time who do want to learn from me but are suffering because of the other kids lack of interest.

Normally when I ask them that question do they want to sit out they look at me like it's a trick question and I have to explain that I'm not angry or annoying and if they choose to sit out I'm not going to punish them further. Because I'm not if a kid doesn't want to spend his evening doing martial arts I'm not making him listen to me for my own ego. Its not law they have to be there so in my opinion they deserve that choice if they want to stand in line and practice or not. I've never been a head instructor but whenever I've assisted I've used that same method and it's always been agreed with by the head instructor and even used after me.

End of the day. Yes kids should do something physically challenging and not playing silly video games. Parents should insist on that but the actual activity should be. Whether it's ballet, boxing, basketball, basket weathing, piano lessons whatever. I don't believe in making a child miserable because I want them to do something they have no interest in. If that's how you do things then more power to you then that's absolutely fair enough. But Imo kids should have certain control over their own life in some aspect instead of just following everything their parents want. That's how they learn about decision making and using their own voice and having the confidence to try new things and not just sticking with the first thing they try.

 

[Headhunter]

Yeah, but you're known to think taking lessons isn't any better than training on your own, so...

Lol can't disagree with that post

 

[skribs]

Sorry you are wrong there, I have taught younger children and that's why I won't now. As I also said I take Rainbows, the 5-7 age group of Girl Guides, I'm very aware of what this age group can and can't do.
Of course it's stressful teaching that young a child, they aren't ready and it's not suitable for them.

Well, most of our children that start that young, martial arts is so natural to them when they're older. It's like a lot of things. 2 year olds aren't really suited for running, but yet they still run around. They're developing skills they'll use later.

However it's not a village raising children, it's a commercial enterprise taking money from parents to supposedly instil discipline and confidence. Paying money to have professionals teach children instruments, dance etc would be fine because those activities have official usually government or professional bodies to ensure the standards of teaching, martial arts don't, besides they are only teaching very specific skills not emotional or psychological ones. I do not believe martial arts instructors should be 'authority' figures, they should be instructors and that's it.

If that's how you see your students, that explains a lot about your posts in this thread.

If a kid doesn't want to be there do you really think sitting them out is a punishment?

Yes. Because they're still there. They'd rather be on the mat punching and kicking than just sitting and watching.

 

[Tez3]

If that's how you see your students, that explains a lot about your posts in this thread.

We aren't a martial arts school we are a club, we don't make any profits and the instructors don't get paid. I've never trained with any group that does it for the money. We do it because we love martial arts. The Ministry of Defence gives us a building behind the wire to use as a dojo so we don't even have to charge enough for rent just enough to cover equipment, so please don't assume things that simply aren't true. More often than not when a school/organisation is taking on such young children it's because they are the money earners for them. Martial arts instructors should only be teaching martial arts, not setting themselves up as ethics teachers. If they show respect, integrity etc during their teaching that is enough, lead by example.

Yes. Because they're still there. They'd rather be on the mat punching and kicking than just sitting and watching.

Are you so sure? children can be really good at masking their emotions especially when parents are pressuring them.

 

[Tez3]

In the UK all the sports organisations including martial arts have training courses on child protection matters, the instructors are DBS checked ( a police check to make sure they aren't paedophiles or predators) and instructor training courses. The sports organisation only teach their sport, if they were to stray into childcare or teaching others subjects they'd come under the OFSTED and have to be checked regularly.

About us

Example safeguarding policy statement | NSPCC Learning

 

[skribs]

We aren't a martial arts school we are a club, we don't make any profits and the instructors don't get paid. I've never trained with any group that does it for the money. We do it because we love martial arts. The Ministry of Defence gives us a building behind the wire to use as a dojo so we don't even have to charge enough for rent just enough to cover equipment, so please don't assume things that simply aren't true. More often than not when a school/organisation is taking on such young children it's because they are the money earners for them. Martial arts instructors should only be teaching martial arts, not setting themselves up as ethics teachers. If they show respect, integrity etc during their teaching that is enough, lead by example.




Are you so sure? children can be really good at masking their emotions especially when parents are pressuring them.

You're telling me not to make assumptions, but you're making some big ones yourself. And yours are bigger leaps.

I'm assuming that because you said kids are only about profit, that's how you view them.
You're assuming that because I teach kids, I'm only about profit.

I'm basing my assumption off of what you say. You're basing your assumptions on your own craziness.

 

[Tez3]

You're telling me not to make assumptions, but you're making some big ones yourself. And yours are bigger leaps.

I'm assuming that because you said kids are only about profit, that's how you view them.
You're assuming that because I teach kids, I'm only about profit.

I'm basing my assumption off of what you say. You're basing your assumptions on your own craziness.

so we are back to insults then. I'm 'crazy' ok so be it. We're finished. I cannot help it if you cannot comprehend what I write and make assumptions. I at no point assumed or said you were about profit, I have been careful through all my posts to say 'many' martial artists etc. You however assumed I hadn't taught younger children.

What the real problem is that you take anything that you disagree as an insult, then start making personal attacks such as calling me crazy. It's not the first time you have read into my posts things that aren't there and taken umbrage. You seem to go off on one whenever I say something you don't like. However you post the things you have opinions on as if they were carved in stone and therefore unimpeachably correct, when we say forcing children to do martial is wrong you are infused with a somewhat spurious righteous anger. You say raising children is the work of a village ( which is debatable) and I say a commercial enterprise is not a village you are affronted yet again.

Look, all this is very amusing but I have small marsupial pouches to knit to send to Oz which is far more interesting than listening to your bluster quite frankly.

Oh and because there's one post Headhunter posted with that you don't agree with it doesn't make everything he says invalid.

 

[skribs]

so we are back to insults then. I'm 'crazy' ok so be it. We're finished. I cannot help it if you cannot comprehend what I write and make assumptions. I at no point assumed or said you were about profit, I have been careful through all my posts to say 'many' martial artists etc. You however assumed I hadn't taught younger children.

I assumed so because what you described about younger children doesn't match with the reality of the younger children I've taught.

What the real problem is that you take anything that you disagree as an insult, then start making personal attacks such as calling me crazy. It's not the first time you have read into my posts things that aren't there and taken umbrage. You seem to go off on one whenever I say something you don't like. However you post the things you have opinions on as if they were carved in stone and therefore unimpeachably correct, when we say forcing children to do martial is wrong you are infused with a somewhat spurious righteous anger. You say raising children is the work of a village ( which is debatable) and I say a commercial enterprise is not a village you are affronted yet again.

You're right. Maybe "hypocrite" was a better word. And it still applies.

 

[skribs]

so we are back to insults then. I'm 'crazy' ok so be it. We're finished. I cannot help it if you cannot comprehend what I write and make assumptions. I at no point assumed or said you were about profit, I have been careful through all my posts to say 'many' martial artists etc. You however assumed I hadn't taught younger children.

What the real problem is that you take anything that you disagree as an insult, then start making personal attacks such as calling me crazy. It's not the first time you have read into my posts things that aren't there and taken umbrage. You seem to go off on one whenever I say something you don't like. However you post the things you have opinions on as if they were carved in stone and therefore unimpeachably correct, when we say forcing children to do martial is wrong you are infused with a somewhat spurious righteous anger. You say raising children is the work of a village ( which is debatable) and I say a commercial enterprise is not a village you are affronted yet again.

Look, all this is very amusing but I have small marsupial pouches to knit to send to Oz which is far more interesting than listening to your bluster quite frankly.

Oh and because there's one post Headhunter posted with that you don't agree with it doesn't make everything he says invalid.

When you quote me, it sounds like you're talking to me. It doesn't sound like you're making a generalization that has nothing to do with me.

 

[dvcochran]

We don't 'make' children eat healthy or do chores, we bring them up by our example, you all eat healthily, your all do your fair share of the chores that need doing. You aren't racist or homophobic, you don't body shame people, you make sure you do mitzvahs not because we must but because we should etc etc. so that's how your children grow up. It's called leading by example something that the military too encourages funnily enough.

Children aren't the same as adults, they don't usually have the freedom to say they don't want to do something and be listened to. Yes they should be doing activities, take the time to find the right one for your child don't throw them into a martial arts class because you think it will instil discipline in the one or two hours a week they are there as opposed to the days, weeks and months they are with their parents. Parents teach their children to dress, talk and use the toilet why would they entrust someone else to teach them 'discipline' and why would a child be brought up without making sure they are confident? Yes have someone teach the maths, science etc but not an activity like discipline.

Discipline is so often in martial arts extolled as this great virtue when in really it means shut up and do as you are told or you'll get press ups. A disciplined child as opposed to a child with self discipline.




Yep so you spend the next lesson undoing the parents teaching, great.



No, I'm saying they are buying into the myth of martial arts ( and actually paying money for it). It's their job to teach their child self discipline and to make sure they grow up to be confident, well rounded human beings who can question the world and do some good. The parents are abdicating their responsibilities in the mistaken belief that forcing children into something that may well damage confidence and lead to resentment is good for them and that as adults they always 'know best'.

The children who get the best out of martial arts are those who love being there and train willingly, that's self descipline. Those who are forced don't learn that, they learn that they have to shut up in class and keep their misery to themselves, they smile and go through the motions because they have to. Is that worth teaching?

Man; I love this post!!! Well said. Fully drives home the moral obligation of being a parent.

 

[Headhunter]

When you quote me, it sounds like you're talking to me. It doesn't sound like you're making a generalization that has nothing to do with me.

Quoting someone is replying to what your saying....it's simply easier than typing a new reply with no quotes for context for anyone reading the thread. If you didn't quote my reply how would I know if you're talking to me or her?

 

[dvcochran]

His 2 oldest kids
Girl- 7
Boy - only 5
Both very coordinated , smart and coordinated but very small

He wants them to join this new gym that has a class that is no-BJJ and some wrestling

the problem is the boy is 45 ibs
The class is 6-12 ages

i am nervous the kids may get hurt and imagine being half the size

First, welcome to the forum quasa44, not sure I said that yet.

My apologies for this thread getting so off topic. There are some strong opinions on here.

To your question; I am guessing some of this may be driven by the convenience of both kids going to the same class? There is nothing specifically wrong with that as long as it is done in the right context. For example, it the parents push for both kids to go so that it is 'cheaper', of course that is wrong. What if the 12 year old decides to quit and the 5 year old loves it? Any issue there? What if the opposite occurs (more likely)? Does this burden the parent with child care or other issues? Does the parent(s) want the kids 'out of their hair' for an hour? This can go on and on.
If the instructor says age is a deal breaker then that ends the discussion. If they take the 5 year old and he loves it and wants to keep going, that ends the conversation. If/when either age child gets to where they do not want to go it can get complicated. Especially when the parent has had zero involvement in what the kids are doing.
The first thing that always needs to happen is a talk with the instructor(s). This can remedy a lot of problems. It is not unheard of for an instructor to be complicit with the dissatisfaction. If the parent is not involved they will have no way of knowing this and the 5 year old may not be able to fully communicate this as an issue.
The short and best answer is to let them both try it out with good supervision from the parents.

I look forward to hearing how it goes. It will be great feedback for those of us that teach kids.

 

[skribs]

Quoting someone is replying to what your saying....it's simply easier than typing a new reply with no quotes for context for anyone reading the thread. If you didn't quote my reply how would I know if you're talking to me or her?

Exactly. It's a reply to what I'm saying. So I'm assuming it's talking to me about what I was talking about. And when the response is something that makes it sound like my position is in the wrong, even if it's just generally aimed at my position, I'm still caught in the crossfire. And since I'm the subject of the post, it feels like it's more than crossfire - but that it's aimed at me.

Of course, with certain people in this thread, if I get offended at what they say, it's because I misunderstood them and they were just talking past me. But if I offend them...whoa boy, buckle in for the lecture!

 

[quasar44]

Yeah, but you're known to think taking lessons isn't any better than training on your own, so...

I take lessons !!!

 

[quasar44]

I do very well In the beginning classes for everything
It’s the higher classes where I tend to quit due to age