The correct statement is "weapons are ideal for people." End of statement. I am neither small nor weak. I also carry a gun. Fair fights are for tournaments.
Is Kenpo a viable fighting and self defense art
- Thread starter Mider
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
A lot of the standardized self defense combinations do contain that kind of thing.
My criticism is two-fold. First, in my opinion this is often a prime example of failing to have an appropriate engine under the hood. The fast hands are often delivered with arm and shoulder strength and not full-body connection. That corvette has a 1979s VW Bug engine. With better full-body connection, you don’t need a dozen follow-up strikes.
Second, I find the logic behind these highly choreographed sequences to be unsupportable. I have seen justification for these lengthy techniques in the idea that they are not meant to be direct solutions in application but instead are just ideas and exploration of movement and options (ok so far). However, I feel it breaks down when the multiple follow-up strikes are then Justified as developing skills to automatically flow quickly from one strike to another as necessary, particularly if the previous strike missed or was ineffectual then the next strike is automatic. I don’t find this believable because the scripting and choreography of these sequences is so precise that the only way to flow to the next strike is if the previous strike worked. So it just becomes a sequence of pounding on someone who is no longer resisting.
woman Might rather have weapons rather then fight, or knives...same with the elderly
I agree
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Your first concern is understandable as many kenpo practitioners get too involved in the rapidity of the strikes kenpo flow allows. This is partly symptomatic of the adverse effects of tournament point sparring where the true combat effectiveness of the strike is not much taken into consideration. But this can be true of other styles as well.
That said, when done correctly, with the body weight thrown into the strikes, they are very effective. I have been struck by Ed Parker, and believe me, there was plenty of horsepower under the hood.
Your second point also has some merit. The sequences are taught with 3 or 4 techniques at first. Then, "extensions" are added on as further follow up. This can turn out to be overly long (8 or 10 techniques) choreographed assumptions of how the combat situation will evolve, and to my mind, does put too much emphasis on quantity of strikes over quality.
There is some good in it, though. It does develop flow, a useful quality. Even if the previous strike does not land, the follow ups can often compensate. And if the opponent does not react as expected, the strikes can be redirected so some benefit can be realized.
All styles may have their plus and minuses, but the most important factor is how the individual practitioner puts it all to use.
- Speed is body chases arm.
- Power is body pushes/pulls arm.
When you try to smash a mosquito 4 feet in front of you, your hand will go first. Your body then follow.
Most MA systems that emphasizes on fast combo, can be weak on power (the other way around is also true).
In this clip you will see fast combo, but not maximum power generation.
In this clip, you may see single technique speed/power, but you won't see combo speed.
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Ive always heard that Ed Parker was very powerful. Ive also heard that the kenpo he personally trained and shared with very few, was quite different from what most of his downstream received. So perhaps much of the kenpo world missed something that ought to have been there.
My experience with kenpo was Tracy lineage, and I know there are differences in the curriculum from other lineages. So I am speaking from that, and what I have observed of other lineages and discussions and comments from others that seemed to support my observations.
As I’ve said, ultimately it is a personal discovery in finding a method that is a good match for the individual. There are those in kenpo who believe in it whole-heartedly.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Good examples.
I've been working hard developing an old man memory...a serious lack thereof, so bear with me. Their Kenpo lineages do both trace back to Willian K.S Chow, yes. If I remember correctly, Ed Parker first trained with Chow's brother, Frank....who then hooked him up with Willian K.S Chow.
Things I find interesting - both guys grew up on the streets, Ed in Honolulu and George in Providence R.I., both got in a lot of street scraps, (George even being locked up in Juvey Hall several times) Both Parker and Pesare were Black Belts in Judo (completely unrelated to each other's experience) before they ever knew what Kenpo was. Both were approachable, but with George you had to earn that right through violent fighting.
Their Kenpo styles might be similar, but the way they taught them was crazy different. Ed Parker was a really nice guy, a lot of fun to be around. He loved good jokes and Italian food. George loved Italian food, too, but didn't care for jokes unless there was a hard edge to them. It was a lot of fun training with Ed. I owe George a great deal as his school was where I first leaned to fight. But I never thought of it as fun. I had the utmost respect for both of men and was very fortunate to have learned from both of them.
I always envisioned what it would be like to see them fight each other. Ed had hands like small canned hams. That's what they felt like when he hit you. Short, quick movements that knocked you back but left serious black and blue marks everywhere he touched you. And he was a strong man. But, so was George. And George could swat with the best of them.
When I reminisce about their Kenpo I get lost in the memory of how it was taught, I don't really remember if the whole battery of techniques was the same.
chiquest
Yellow Belt
To make the techniques of any style effective in combat, you have to use short portions from the katas and formal sequences. It isn't practical to try using a 10-part sequence in a self defense application. Also, it's important to remember that Ed Parker's creation is not the original Kenpo. The Mitose-Chow-Emperado-Tiwanak-Pancipanci-Redmon lineage is the original Kenpo. James Mitose started learning Kosho-ryū Kempo in Japan from the family of Toju Kosho sometime after 1920. He brought Kosho-ryū Kempo from Japan to Hawaii in 1935. In 1936, he began teaching William K. S. Chow. Professor Chow taught Ed Parker and the Emperado brothers (Adriano and Joe}. That lineage continued from Adriano Emperado through Marino Tiwanak, Florentino Pancipanci and John Redmon. In the 1950s, Marino Tiwanak established CHA-3 Kenpo schools in Hawaii. Those traditions are taught in numerous Kenpo schools that are operating in Hawaii, California, Montana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Illinois, Florida, Louisiana, Nevada, Texas, Pennsylvania, and Canada. Ed Parker changed what he was taught to create his own style. In the video, "KENPO IN ED PARKER'S OWN WORDS"...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-BwaNUe1Ws...from :47-1:09...he talks about how he created "American Kenpo". Ed Parker was a master of marketing. As a result of his tournaments, television and movie appearances, as well as his seminars, many came to consider him the "godfather of Kenpo". This is not accurate. James Mitose is actually the "godfather of Kenpo". This video is an example of the Mitose-Chow-Emperado-Tiwanak-Pancipanci-Redmon lineage...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MFdlmAI1zw.
One interesting story about the name "Kenpo" is that in Mitose's manuscript for his book, "What is True Self-Defense?", he called the style "Kempo". The publisher inexplicably changed the spelling to "Kenpo". When numerous books were printed, Mitose saw the modification and asked the publisher to change the name back to "Kempo". When the publisher told him how expensive it would be, Mitose decided to leave the modified spelling in the book. The rest, as they say, is history. That is why the names "Kempo" and "Kenpo" are really interchangeable and refer to the same discipline.
One interesting story about the name "Kenpo" is that in Mitose's manuscript for his book, "What is True Self-Defense?", he called the style "Kempo". The publisher inexplicably changed the spelling to "Kenpo". When numerous books were printed, Mitose saw the modification and asked the publisher to change the name back to "Kempo". When the publisher told him how expensive it would be, Mitose decided to leave the modified spelling in the book. The rest, as they say, is history. That is why the names "Kempo" and "Kenpo" are really interchangeable and refer to the same discipline.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Well, let’s just say there is some bit of controversy in the history of Chow-lineage kenpo. Especially when Mitose comes into the picture.
I train in Shaolin Kenpo (Ralph Castro founder, he was a peer of Parker's at Chow's in Hawaii).
Our kenpo is very practical in that all our kata's are our self defense moves. We require all students to do the kata's with attackers in addition to doing them solo alone. So even a white belt won't make it to yellow until their can do their first kata both solo and with attackers coming at them. The heavy emphasis on doing kata's with attacks gives us a large arsenal of self defense moves and regular practice with how to practically apply them. Are some techniques less practical than others? Sure but you get to learn a lot and find the ones that work before you which you can take back out on the street if ever needed.
Our kenpo is very practical in that all our kata's are our self defense moves. We require all students to do the kata's with attackers in addition to doing them solo alone. So even a white belt won't make it to yellow until their can do their first kata both solo and with attackers coming at them. The heavy emphasis on doing kata's with attacks gives us a large arsenal of self defense moves and regular practice with how to practically apply them. Are some techniques less practical than others? Sure but you get to learn a lot and find the ones that work before you which you can take back out on the street if ever needed.
SgtBarnes
Green Belt
why do you think this?
I would agree with this statement. Most of our attacks focus more on fast and effective hand strikes in all the kenpo variants from what I've seen.
I had sparred with many Kenpo guys before. There were 2 Kenpo guys in my fighting club.
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SgtBarnes
Green Belt
Useless no power
Old Happy Tiger
Orange Belt
The short answer: Yes, Kenpo/Kempo is effective as long as the person studying it is also being taught real world self-defense applications.
The long answer: There are many styles of Kenpo/Kempo and I'm not going to debate lineage and origin. Some schools that I've seen simply do point-like sparring, forms and that is it. Other schools like Kenpo 5.0, actually practice grappling and ground fighting. When I took Kenpo long ago, we used to do arm bar/locks, ground grappling and even basic throws and would actually wear protective equipment and spar. Back when I was a very much younger man..... I will say back then knowing Kenpo helped me to defend myself... But again... it is effective as long as the person studying it is also being taught real world self-defense applications.
The long answer: There are many styles of Kenpo/Kempo and I'm not going to debate lineage and origin. Some schools that I've seen simply do point-like sparring, forms and that is it. Other schools like Kenpo 5.0, actually practice grappling and ground fighting. When I took Kenpo long ago, we used to do arm bar/locks, ground grappling and even basic throws and would actually wear protective equipment and spar. Back when I was a very much younger man..... I will say back then knowing Kenpo helped me to defend myself... But again... it is effective as long as the person studying it is also being taught real world self-defense applications.
Well said @Old Happy Tiger
That's what I love so much about Shaolin Kenpo, always learning it WITH the practical application!
Old Happy Tiger
Orange Belt
Thanks... I don't practice Kenpo/Kempo too much anymore, just mainly Yang Tai Chi Chuan with the applications. I don't usually reveal too much about the linege of the martial arts that I used to practice (and still do like Yang Tai Chi Chuan) but I go back a bit in years in Kenpo/Kempo. I know the entire real background of the style and many of the offshoots. I have not seen anyone post like you have about teaching Ralph Castro's style in a long time. I come from a now defunct and closed Shaolin Kempo school, that was kind of an off-shoot of the late Nick Cerio, but more of an hybrid style, using the original James Mitose Okinawa Kenpo as the base and mixing actual Chinese hand strikes and traditional weapons from both Okinawan Karate and also Chinese Kung Fu. Also, back then there was some Judo and Japanese Jujitsu mixed in. A lot of people out there don't like Kempo/Kempo but it does and can work as long as again.. The person studying it is also being taught real world self-defense applications.
punisher73
Senior Master
I think one of the other "disconnects" is that MANY of the ideas/concepts behind the rapid fire techniques were designed so that they were supposed to be just arm movement and not meant to be a more committed full body strike. I don't need a cannon to kill a fly. On the other hand, I can't shoot a cannon from a canoe. Meaning, if I am trying to kill a fly I don't need lots of power. If I do have to use a lot of power, than I need a platform to support it.
For example, eye pokes/slices, throat strikes etc. don't need a lot of power, just speed to set up a power shot. Many of those targets aren't used because they aren't legal to be used in most self-defense situations. In Kajukenbo (both trace a large part of their lineage to Prof. Chow) they have a saying. "Lead with Speed, Devour with Power".
