Is it enough to Remember Kata? Or do you need to Know them?

[clautz]

Have you ever had the feeling of not quite remembering a Kata until you are actually performing it?
Is this why we can produce our best Kata when we aren't thinking about it? For example when we are tired? Does this show that you really know it when you can perform your Kata under stress? Is this where the true Bunkai for the Kata really lies? Can we reveal our best Karate from our Kata when it really counts? I believe we can have a positive answer to all these questions as we mature as karateka, as our true Budo is born. I know it sounds romantic, but is it a reality for you? What have others experienced in the way their Kata is delivered from the subconscious when it matters the most? Is knowing more important than remembering?

Please go to wiki and lookup "mushin" - that is where you should be eventually with your kata (Mind with No Mind). A friend of mine described it "as a psychodelic zen like experience."

 

[KenpoMaster805]

well you have to know your kata step by step before you can remember it kata is not easy its hard and it take practice you have to know your stances strikes kick or finger strike

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Which approach is better?

1. Learn the form first and understand the application later.
2. Understand the application first and learn the form later?

It depends on the age that you start your MA training. If you start at age

- 5, it may be better to take the 1st approach.
- 20, it may be better to take the 2nd approach.

 

[Tez3]

Which approach is better?

1. Learn the form first and understand the application later.
2. Understand the application first and learn the form later?

It depends on the age that you start your MA training. If you start at age

- 5, it may be better to take the 1st approach.
- 20, it may be better to take the 2nd approach.

Why is it necessary to do one or the either, you can quite easily do both together.
Learning martial arts when you are under five years old is frankly ridiculous, far, far too young.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Why is it necessary to do one or the either, you can quite easily do both together.
Learning martial arts when you are under five years old is frankly ridiculous, far, far too young.

I disagree, a Little Dragons class can be quite non-violent, but very athletic and fun. And, it is never too early to teach people how to move.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem I have with this question and many of the posts is that there is an assumption that all kata serve the same function. That is not true when we look at kata across styles or even within a single style.
Not all kata are ment to have a bunkai. Not all kata are imaginary self defense scenarios. But this is the assumption most people have. I find many people looking for bunkai applications and end up having to make excuses and justifications to make up for the lack of coherent application in their bunkai explanation. In many cases the action was not intended to have a bunkai but is there for other reasons.

Even within an art, some forms will have deeper teaching (not philosophical, just principles to be explored), while others will only have what's on the surface. Some may be esoteric - just ways to explore specific principles of manipulating the interaction of two bodies - while others will be directly applicable to a specific self-defense scenario.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why is it necessary to do one or the either, you can quite easily do both together.
Learning martial arts when you are under five years old is frankly ridiculous, far, far too young.

If the idea is to teach fighting, then yes, it's too young. As an alternative to other forms of physical education, I see no problem with a curriculum built specifically to help develop young muscles and coordination. Practicing the movements early can also give those kids a head start on learning the full art (or a similar one) later.

EDIT: Just please, PLEASE, don't make me teach them.

 

[Tez3]

I've worked with children for a very long time, by all means teach children to move though they don't actually need it, just allow them to do it themselves, don't hinder them. Under five is far too young for any organised sport or activity.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I've worked with children for a very long time, by all means teach children to move though they don't actually need it, just allow them to do it themselves, don't hinder them. Under five is far too young for any organised sport or activity.

Nobody can accuse a little dragons class as being organized.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Which approach is better?

1. Learn the form first and understand the application later.
2. Understand the application first and learn the form later?

It depends on the age that you start your MA training. If you start at age

- 5, it may be better to take the 1st approach.
- 20, it may be better to take the 2nd approach.

I personally believe that you should learn the basic application of the techniques in a form while you learn the movements because if you know what a particular move is supposed to do in combat you will better remember it during the form. This is especially important in weapons forms (especially sword forms) where your strikes are designed to target very specific parts of the body like the neck, the thigh, the hip, etc. By learning which part of the body you are aiming for, you can practice your accuracy by visualising the opponent in front of you, as opposed to just striking in the general direction randomly. That said, I believe that a lot of forms have a deeper meaning and overall application that can only be learned and understood once you have learned the movements and basic applications. For example, in the first open-hand form I learned, called "San Zhan", first I learned what the movements were supposed to do in a fight, then once I had learned the movements, my instructor told me about the importance of the breathing and a whole new level of understanding for the form came to me. Until that point I didn't realise the true intent of the form and why we practice it.

 

[JP3]

Kata/Forms = Catalog of movements, positions, & postures.
Bunkai - (The Study of Kata/Forms) = Research and analysis of the movements, positions, postures...etc and how to apply them vs a non compliant opponent. (often first performed vs a compliant partner) & (often there are drills performed as a tool for research)

Sadly many never get past learning the Katas/Forms. They never study or analyze them, they never gain an understanding nor an ability to truly function or it is at a low level of function. So many can perform numerous katas/forms but don't know what they are doing.

.

Yes.... just rote memory without understanding.

Learning a movement placed in apattern of such movements helps you to learn all the movements and positions into which the movements propel you. But... why! That's the thinking about why you moved in a why, the why of the position, good in this way, bad in that way, etc. Strong in this direction, weak in that direction. Closed to attacks this way, open from that, etc. Perform. Consider Analyze. Rinse, lather repeat.

Come back to a form after putting it aside for 10 years, and see if it doesn't speak to you with new info.

 

[drop bear]

If the idea is to teach fighting, then yes, it's too young. As an alternative to other forms of physical education, I see no problem with a curriculum built specifically to help develop young muscles and coordination. Practicing the movements early can also give those kids a head start on learning the full art (or a similar one) later.

EDIT: Just please, PLEASE, don't make me teach them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

.

Yes.... just rote memory without understanding.

Learning a movement placed in apattern of such movements helps you to learn all the movements and positions into which the movements propel you. But... why! That's the thinking about why you moved in a why, the why of the position, good in this way, bad in that way, etc. Strong in this direction, weak in that direction. Closed to attacks this way, open from that, etc. Perform. Consider Analyze. Rinse, lather repeat.

Come back to a form after putting it aside for 10 years, and see if it doesn't speak to you with new info.

I did talk with an instructor in one style (I've forgotten which, perhaps a form of Silat) where they had some forms that didn't have any specific application. When teaching, the instructor would sometimes say, "Now use the three-step sequence from the middle of form X" to give students a quick reference to the sequence of foot movements. Apparently, there was no separate purpose to these particular forms, except to provide a shorthand for learning new sequences.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's better focus and intent than I've seen from a lot of adults.

Still, please don't make me teach the kids.

 

[CDR_Glock]

As a student and instructor, I find it important to know the sequence of steps, but it is as important to understand why and how we move to execute it. To me, it also uncovers poor form or shows me how well a person knows how to practice fundamentals of basic or advanced techniques. The exercise shows how to properly maintain balance, flow, control, power and speed while maintaining a clear mind, ability to concentrate, as well as be aware of what is happening around him or her.


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