Is it a consensus in the martial arts world that... BJJ is the best?

[Hanzou]

I'm not a Judo guy. I don't know Judo only has 5% ground.

If we’re classifying “ground” as what is taught in modern Bjj/submission grappling, then I would definitely say that Judo is 5% ground in comparison, and that percentage is constantly shrinking. Ten years ago I would say that a black belt in Judo would be about a mid to upper level blue belt in Bjj in terms of ground fighting skill. Now I would say they would be an upper tier white belt or lower. Bjj has evolved that much in the past decade, and simply continues to do so.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Simply put, a single leg or body lock is easier to perform than a Harai Goahi or an Uchi Mata.

Both throws do require good balance, and flexibility. It does take much long time to develop it.

 

[drop bear]

Simply put, a single leg or body lock is easier to perform than a Harai Goahi or an Uchi Mata.

The really weird part about judo throws vs wrestling throws is wrestling does judo throws.

 

[drop bear]

I pull this out as an easy example.

Punches kind of cheat the system a bit in that you don't have to learn as intricate grappling system to properly utilise it.

And the intricate system that makes good grappling, inverting, leg locks, fighting from guard. Are very susceptible to punching.

So you can more efficiently train a wrestling or a folk style or a sambo or something. And be better quicker.

And I think the basic wrestling ideas are more transferable to self defence. Especially the getting back to your feet aspects.

But BJJ is a bit easier to do and it is easier to find consistency and quality.

 

[Hanzou]

I pull this out as an easy example.

Punches kind of cheat the system a bit in that you don't have to learn as intricate grappling system to properly utilise it.

And the intricate system that makes good grappling, inverting, leg locks, fighting from guard. Are very susceptible to punching.

So you can more efficiently train a wrestling or a folk style or a sambo or something. And be better quicker.

And I think the basic wrestling ideas are more transferable to self defence. Especially the getting back to your feet aspects.

But BJJ is a bit easier to do and it is easier to find consistency and quality.

The thing is that wrestling and Bjj compliment each other quite well and cover each other’s flaws. Wrestling covers BJJ’s standup and top game, and Bjj covers Wrestling’s bottom game and submissions. Put them together and you have modern submission grappling that is constantly evolving and often times still referred to as Bjj. This occurred because (especially in the states) Bjj embraced wrestling while Judo largely ran from it. So former collegiate and high school wrestlers could continue grappling in Bjj competitions and MMA. As the years go on, you’re seeing more and more Bjj black belts with a heavy wrestling background.

Bjj simply has the advantage that pretty anything goes grappling-wise in a Bjj gym. If it works, it will be considered Bjj, despite where it came from.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah, I noticed they’re calling their system South Mountain Jujitsu instead of just Judo. As you said, this was more likely done because they were incorporating stuff that simply isn’t allowed in modern Judo so they couldn’t call themselves a Judo dojo.

This simply isn’t the case in Bjj.

I'm not sure what the reasoning is, and know that they're not affiliated with the kodokan themselves or the IJF (they actively chose not to when I was there, and the website does not indicate anything different), but they only called themselves judo when I was there. What's interesting is while they call it "South mountain jujitsu", the rest of the line is "is our form of classical judo". So in their minds it's likely still pure judo.

This part is definitely the essence of their philosophy "far more than a struggle for petty points & penalties among the hyperfit". Pretty much all the judo players and instructors there were very frustrated with some rules put in place (this would have been around 2012/13), primarily the (then-recent) change in leg grabs, something with how the penalties are awarded, and people going for points rather than throws and/or follow-up submissions when applicable. So it would not surprise me if the relationship has since soured even further.

All that said, my point was that the one judo school I've trained in does not have the issues that you're claiming, and at the time was purely judo. Offered as a contrast.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not sure what the reasoning is, and know that they're not affiliated with the kodokan themselves or the IJF (they actively chose not to when I was there, and the website does not indicate anything different), but they only called themselves judo when I was there. What's interesting is while they call it "South mountain jujitsu", the rest of the line is "is our form of classical judo". So in their minds it's likely still pure judo.

This part is definitely the essence of their philosophy "far more than a struggle for petty points & penalties among the hyperfit". Pretty much all the judo players and instructors there were very frustrated with some rules put in place (this would have been around 2012/13), primarily the (then-recent) change in leg grabs, something with how the penalties are awarded, and people going for points rather than throws and/or follow-up submissions when applicable. So it would not surprise me if the relationship has since soured even further.

All that said, my point was that the one judo school I've trained in does not have the issues that you're claiming, and at the time was purely judo. Offered as a contrast.

Understood. My point is that someone attending a Judo dojo is more likely not going to be offered what you were offered at this more eclectic school. Especially a IJF affiliated dojo that actively competes. The fact that they don’t even feel that they’re offering Judo anymore is also quite telling.

Meanwhile, pretty much every Bjj school is going to be offering leg locks, shoulder locks, wrist locks, leg grabs, nogi, and other stuff not allowed or practiced in modern Judo. The average Bjj practitioner is getting a more holistic grappling experience than the average Judoka.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Understood. My point is that someone attending a Judo dojo is more likely not going to be offered what you were offered at this more eclectic school. Especially a IJF affiliated dojo that actively competes. The fact that they don’t even feel that they’re offering Judo anymore is also quite telling.

Meanwhile, pretty much every Bjj school is going to be offering leg locks, shoulder locks, wrist locks, leg grabs, nogi, and other stuff not allowed or practiced in modern Judo. The average Bjj practitioner is getting a more holistic grappling experience than the average Judoka.

Contrariwise, a prospective BJJ student is much more likely to encounter a school which devotes a grossly inadequate percentage of time to training takedowns.

Fortunately, that isn't universal. The classes I teach are 50% standup and 50% groundwork and there are plenty of other BJJ instructors who do an excellent job of covering the standup portion of the art. But there are also many BJJ schools which spend 90-95% of their time training groundwork. Given that throws and takedowns are some of the most demanding aspects of fighting, 5-10 % of training time is just not enough for the average student to achieve competence in a reasonable length of time.

Once you factor in all those schools which spend most of their time on the ground, I'm not sure how to rate the holistic grappling experience of the average BJJ practitioner.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ten years ago I would say that a black belt in Judo would be about a mid to upper level blue belt in Bjj in terms of ground fighting skill. Now I would say they would be an upper tier white belt or lower.

I haven't visited enough Judo schools to feel comfortable judging what the average skill level of a black belt across the Judo community would be. (Especially since many of the Judo instructors I've worked with have also cross-trained in BJJ.)

I will say that I've encountered Judo black belts whose ground skills ranged anywhere from BJJ one-stripe white belt all the way up to BJJ serious competitive black belt.

I suspect this isn't just a matter of the time devoted to groundwork in a given school, but also the competitive style of the individual judoka. A judoka who doesn't want to spend time becoming expert on the ground can just learn how to turtle up and stall for a short time until the ref stands them up in competition. On the other hand, a judoka who does want to win fights on the ground has to get really, really good at transitioning from a throw into a fast, precise attack against a defensive opponent in order to get the win before the ref stands them up. I've got a lot of respect for the judoka who have developed that kind of skill.

 

[drop bear]

The thing is that wrestling and Bjj compliment each other quite well and cover each other’s flaws. Wrestling covers BJJ’s standup and top game, and Bjj covers Wrestling’s bottom game and submissions. Put them together and you have modern submission grappling that is constantly evolving and often times still referred to as Bjj. This occurred because (especially in the states) Bjj embraced wrestling while Judo largely ran from it. So former collegiate and high school wrestlers could continue grappling in Bjj competitions and MMA. As the years go on, you’re seeing more and more Bjj black belts with a heavy wrestling background.

Bjj simply has the advantage that pretty anything goes grappling-wise in a Bjj gym. If it works, it will be considered Bjj, despite where it came from.

But it also means you could be sitting down and doing bolos all the time. Which may not be the crunchy self defence style of BJJ you are looking for.

 

[Hanzou]

Contrariwise, a prospective BJJ student is much more likely to encounter a school which devotes a grossly inadequate percentage of time to training takedowns.

Fortunately, that isn't universal. The classes I teach are 50% standup and 50% groundwork and there are plenty of other BJJ instructors who do an excellent job of covering the standup portion of the art. But there are also many BJJ schools which spend 90-95% of their time training groundwork. Given that throws and takedowns are some of the most demanding aspects of fighting, 5-10 % of training time is just not enough for the average student to achieve competence in a reasonable length of time.

Once you factor in all those schools which spend most of their time on the ground, I'm not sure how to rate the holistic grappling experience of the average BJJ practitioner.

Inadequate time on throws and takedowns is a vague measure though. There’s a difference between an opinion of the appropriate amount of time spent on an aspect of training, and a system not teaching the aspect at all.

 

[Hanzou]

But it also means you could be sitting down and doing bolos all the time. Which may not be the crunchy self defence style of BJJ you are looking for.

There is some self defense value in the more competitive side of Bjj. Obviously you’re going to have to modify what you’re learning for street purposes, just like Wrestling, Judo, MMA, or anything else. Bjj isn’t unique in that regard.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Given that throws and takedowns are some of the most demanding aspects of fighting,

I believe the most demanding aspect of fighting is to deal with someone who tries to knock your head off. IMO, most of the BJJ school just don't train the fists flying situation enough.

You may not want to train your striking skill to be as good as a boxer has. But at least you want to train anti-striking skill so you won't be knocked down by a striker.

What kind of anti-striking skill does a BJJ school train?

 

[Hanzou]

I believe the most demanding aspect of fighting is to deal with someone who tries to knock your head off. IMO, most of the BJJ school just don't train the fists flying situation enough.

You may not want to train your striking skill to be as good as a boxer has. But at least you want to train anti-striking skill so you won't be knocked down by a striker.

What kind of anti-striking skill does a BJJ school train?

That sort of training is rather prevalent in Gracie schools. Especially Relson, Rickson, and Rorian’s lines of Gjj. You shouldn’t have a problem finding that sort of stuff even on YouTube. They base a lot of their marketing around that sort of thing.

Heck, just look at the first UFCs. That’s a pretty good example of Bjj dealing with striking.

 

[Cynik75]

Nice BJJ example from "da streetz". Guard passing is pure BJJ:

https://www.reddit.com/r/fightporn/comments/zr2886

 

[Hanzou]

Nice BJJ example from "da streetz". Guard passing is pure BJJ:

https://www.reddit.com/r/fightporn/comments/zr2886

There’s examples of this all over the place. Bjj simply works in a fight. Which is why it’s been a mainstay of MMA and self defense training for decades.

 

[Anarax]

Of course you have....

Listen, saying that Judo is a more complete system because you supposedly had some Judo guru in his garage teach you "teh secret sauce" doesn't make Judo a more complete grappling system. The simple reality is that if the average person goes to the average Judo dojo, they won't be getting a complete grappling system compared to what they'd get at the average BJJ school.

Those are simply the facts.

My instructor is a wealth of knowledge and experience, I'm very fortunate to have him as my teacher. He knows an entire network of old school Judo instructors that teach the same non-Olympic style, many of which also have black belts in bjj.

Having more experience with BJJ than Judo, I still acknowledge the completeness that Judo has compared to BJJ. Judo blends near seamlessly with my Karate, FMA and Kickboxing background/training. The setups for Judo techniques, for the most part, are already there from a standing position and I haven't had to modify Judo much to incorporate it into my training. BJJ on the other hand mostly emphasizes the ground. As Tony has mentioned, each BJJ school is a little different on emphasis, but you'll be hard pressed to find one that focuses more on standup than your average Judo dojo. This isn't a Judo vs BJJ case, but it is an objective assessment of how non-olympic Judo covers more elements of grappling than your average BJJ school. Please feel free to watch the video of Travis Stevens(black belt in both Judo and BJJ) explaining the advantages of both below. Enjoy!!!

 

[Anarax]

The really weird part about judo throws vs wrestling throws is wrestling does judo throws.

You beat me to it. Here are some other examples as well

 

[Ivan]

Title.

I find Judo and boxing to be much more fashionable for me but... I mean, if it's common knowledge that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the best, then I may as well sign up for it in the one close to my home. The dojo is literally walking distance for me.

If the consensus is shaky, however... Then I want to stick to Judo. Judo looks awesome.

Honestly my goal is really to be skilled enough to easily neutralize or hurt a same-sized person who's hostile against me, without weapons. I have no ambitions of being competitive. If Judo is more than enough for that, then Judo it is. But if Brazilian Jiu Jitsu will do it far better, then I may have to reconsider.

There is no "best" realistically, there is only what works best for you. If you are short and stubby, you'd have much better luck grabbing someone and taking them down than outboxing them. I've also found hip throws in Judo tend to be easier if your opponents are taller than you. In contrast, people with longer limbs are much better suited to striking due to being able to stay safe at range.
Regardless, I would advise you to consider, that high-level Judo and high-level BJJ are very similar. A good Judoka is well-versed in newaza, and a good Jiujitsu practitioner is skilled with throws and takedowns. Whether you choose Judo or BJJ, your destination remains the same, albeit, your journey toward it and the eccentricities of your individual style will differ.

 

[Rich Parsons]

But it also means you could be sitting down and doing bolos all the time. Which may not be the crunchy self defence style of BJJ you are looking for.

Hi Drop Bear,

When I read "Bolos" I first thought of the weapon used in the Philippines.
I then immediately thought of "Be 'On-the' Look Out" for ---


I guess I could use some more rounding to this point.