Is FMA the only viable stick art??

[Kframe]

I have a question guys. Is FMA the only viable stick system out there? I ask because Im about to start a new MA that also has Various stick and BO skills. I also noticed that Sang H KIM has a number of FMA influenced Stick system dvd's out there. I purchased Sang h Kims dvds, just because they were cheap and it would give me something to do in the mean time lol.

I have been looking at the Dog Brothers DVD series, but Good lord they draw from a number of places. They have some FMA then they teach some Krabi Krabong and it goes on and on.

So I have a feeling the answer is, yes all others are jokes, but surprise me any ways. What is the truth?

 

[arnisador]

You can get good staff stuff in lots of arts. For sticks of escrima length-- two to two-and-a-half feet--the FMAs are the best known, but other arts have some such material too. However, for stick-dueling you'll find fewer similar options. Japanese hanbo (three foot stick) and jukendo (bayonet) are very different in feel. The Chinese material in the hard whip isn't quite the same. So, once you leave the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, and Burma, you won't find anything very similar, I think, even though you'll find some stick arts dealing in similar lengths.

 

[jks9199]

Not at all. Wanna look closer to home? Look at the quarterstaff. Or the truncheons and batons still used by police around the world... (Singlestick probably owes a bit more to the sword, from what I've seen of it.) Savate includes la canne...

Sticks are probably one of the most prevalent weapons around because they're prevalent in nature, and can be used to fight without much by way of modification. You'll find stick fighting systems or methods around the world.

 

[James Kovacich]

It depends on your goals in your training. For example, there are big differences in the Japanese approach vs a Filipino approach. In my opinion, the Filipino approach is more of a "hands on" art. While other arts (traditional) can teach how to use a stick, they tend to have less focus on banging sticks and sparring.
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[Brian R. VanCise]

Stick fighting has been around a long time and almost every culture has a form of stick fighting. I personally love the FMA approach. The melting pot that is the Philippines makes from some great martial skill sets with the stick and even more importantly with the blade. However, I have worked out with Inodesian practitioner's that had some great movement, Japanese martial practitioner's that had great movement as well. I have even had a chance to work out with medieval revival practitioner's and they had good movement. Not to mention the training I received in India where they have very advanced weapons training. I personally love some of the African stick work. Very intimidating style geared towards very tall individuals! The stick has been around a long time so it is no surprise that people everywhere have some experience with it.

 

[Kframe]

Thank you guys for the replys. Since im new to Bujinkan its going to be a long while before I learn anything weapons related. So just to fill my time with something I went ahead and purchased Sang h Kims DVD set http://www.turtlepress.com/Joongbong_Short_Stick_DVD_Set_p/206.html as well as his http://www.turtlepress.com/Ssang_Bong_Fundamentals_&_Patterns_DVD_p/49.html. It might not be perfect but it will do me till I get to some real training.

So how does the Japanese approach hanbo vs how the FMA approach there sicks? From what I have seen, its less on blocking and lots of parrying and sliding and leverage attacks.

 

[Happy-Papi]

So how does the Japanese approach hanbo vs how the FMA approach there sicks? From what I have seen, its less on blocking and lots of parrying and sliding and leverage attacks.

This is just based on my personal experience so please take this with a grain of salt since I didn't learn FMA from organized schools... I gave several demos and lessons to Japanese MA guys who has experience with Hanbo but their main art was Karate, Judo, Aikido, Naginata and Kendo and some of them have experience with tonfa and nunchukus. Based on their comments, they said that my FMA (Traditional) is different compared to their Hanbo. They said that FMA is more circular and free flowing, blocking are mostly done by parrying and not by straight/direct blocks then immediately turns the block into an attack, footwork and movement are more orthodox plus I like to do lots of stick locks and stand-up grappling and choking with the stick. They noticed that I tend to always get very close for the kill even when I have longer reach range because of my sticks. They said that naturally they put focus more on my sticks but I tend to go very close and start my "hit/poke N grab" and goes for single stick or hand to hand then I start poking their eyes, neck cranking, finger choking or stand up grappling and throws. I like finishing my opponent with the sticks but my teachers said that going hand to hand looks cool for the audience but in reality, hand to hand is the last option.

I think this is mostly an FMA style in general though my experience with the modern FMA art is very limited. The ones who have some experience with Modern FMA said that my FMA style and the Modern FMA that they have studied looked similar but have a different approach. Modern FMA has more techniques and can be use for defending and controlling the opponent and mine is strictly military. Some even commented that the teachers on their seminars are systematic and put lots of time explaining and showing the techniques but mine was more on "watch, learn and steal" and that I teach very fast and I don't like to go back to teach the same thing again.

They also asked me to do some moves like Kata and they said that mine looks like a mountain man playing with sticks and is very tribal (I learned mine from grandpops and mountain men in the Philipines when I was growing up ) The ones they saw at seminars has a more systematic, dynamic and is very martial arts looking while mine was like a mountain witch doing a ceremonial chicken dance, (will never do that again in public because my students started imitating me and it looks like we are about to sacrifice something... HAHAHA!). FMA has a vast style and the techniques and presentation will surely be different for every practitioner and instructor.

My students also gave me some lessons in Hanbo and it is really good. It is like Karate with sticks. The movements and attacks are also close to tonfa, and kendo and sometimes they wait for the exact moment for the attack. Their hits are direct and heavy. I've also studied Karate during my younger years and I find the movements and techniques easy to learn and apply but since I have spent most of my life with FMA, I tend to use lots of circular motions and twirling with the Hanbo and this is what my students was really after because they wanted to get the good parts and incorporate their newly learned techniques to their art.

I guess all stick arts have similarities. The best advice that I can give you is whatever stick art you may study is that you must mix the techniques to compliment with your current fighting art (EX: if you are doing Korean MA, the stick art's movements must be compatible with your Korean MA style to make stuffs easier for you. If you like doing ceremonial chicken dance then I'm your best bet, HAHAHA!

 

[Kframe]

I know nothing of the stick style in Sang h kims dvds. When they get here ill have a gander. This is only just for my own benefit really. I figured these would be great help until such time that actual class time is devoted to them.

Happi I would love to see a video of you and your kata in action. I think it would be very educational and informative.

 

[James Kovacich]

I have a question guys. Is FMA the only viable stick system out there? I ask because Im about to start a new MA that also has Various stick and BO skills. I also noticed that Sang H KIM has a number of FMA influenced Stick system dvd's out there. I purchased Sang h Kims dvds, just because they were cheap and it would give me something to do in the mean time lol.

I have been looking at the Dog Brothers DVD series, but Good lord they draw from a number of places. They have some FMA then they teach some Krabi Krabong and it goes on and on.

So I have a feeling the answer is, yes all others are jokes, but surprise me any ways. What is the truth?

I thought Sang H. Kim's name sounded familiar. I have a stretching book by him, a decent book. I'm pretty sure he's a TKD guy. Not sure where he got his weapons training.

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[Happy-Papi]

Happi I would love to see a video of you and your kata in action. I think it would be very educational and informative.

Maybe someday when I get drunk, lol!
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This may be out of topic but for those who might be interested with Tribal MA and would like to get some idea...

Personally I find the techniques in the movements (dance) very different from katas because it looks more like aborigines doing their war dance. Our closest are the Aeta Tribes but my province is far away from the Aetas and still there are similarities.

The difference between katas is that katas are systematic and any practitioner can learn the movements, skills and techniques easily with practice. Tribal dance is more on being one with nature and is more free flowing and often the techniques are not obvious and is more easily done when the practitioner has finished chewing some roots, drank some homemade liquor or has smoked some weird leaves. This will help loosen up the practitioner to go in a state of trance but doing it too much causes the practitioner to do funny stuffs like a stoned hippie dancing in circles, hahaha!

My grandpop teachers introduced me to some mountain guys who regularly goes down the mountain for trading and to get their car batteries charged (batteries for radio and TV). These guys carry their load on their shoulders and walks for days to go to the village. Though they may have radio and TV, they are still very much isolated. These are the people who was kind enough to share with me some of their skills over a box of shotgun shells. My grandma basically came from one of those tribes. When I was young I saw grandma doing similar movements with her itak (machete).

Though it may not look much compared to katas, I highly prefer doing it than katas because of it's hidden benefits. My old teachers said that the main point and benefit of doing this is to set the mind for hunting or for manhunt and the body just follows automatically. The guys said that it is not the dance but the imagination of the kill that when it is time, mind and body moves as one. It is like image training plus the will to kill. They said that one must put himself in the the scenario of stalking, attack, covering tracks and last is evading.

My son accidentally caught me doing this one time when I was messed-up and he wanted to learn it. I showed him the basics and taught him the idea. He is half Filipino-Japanese and could not imitate how I moved (probably cultural differences???) so I told him to just do whatever feels easier. Since I trained him with CQC-FMA and since he was taking Judo that time, his was a mix but the good thing is that he really excelled during his next Judo competition. He just walked in and just started strangling his opponent. That day he strangled 3 opponents and was able to K.O. two. There was worry on the faces of his Judo instructor, his opponents and the parents and I got a little worried too because his eyes looks different and his movements are very direct and brutal so I told him to ease off. Usually for Judo that the players will try to throw each other but my son just rammed them down and immediately started strangulation. Effective but dirty...That is the big problem with the dance/meditation because it makes the person effective but violent. I've heard that he is not practicing it now because it messes up his mind.

You can also do it yourself, you can imagine that you are stalking a target, attack and evade. You can also do it by imagining that you have multiple targets, you attack then you evade. The secret is that your every hit counts and that you are not just pounding but you are finishing the job with every single attack. Move and imagine that you are one effective warrior and your main purpose is to hide traces and bring their heads home and that will complete your war dance. Remember that the dance doesn't end up after your attack. You have to drag, hide or dispose of traces to complete the dance. In ours, there is this movement where we drink our prize... but you should not go this far I guess
It is very different compared to modern MA where the katas are finished after delivering the strikes...

I haven't tried the dance/meditation for self defense purposes but I sure that it also can be done but I don't know if it will be as effective for SD because it really messes up the mind... Watching modern tribal dancers though they may look organized and good are okay for entertainment but if you really want the real thing, watch some film of real aborigines war dance and you will see that the modern tribal dance lacks the mind for the kill and are mostly just shaking their booties Practice it and be one with it but remember to stop when you feel that it is starting to mess you up.

I'm talking only about my experiences with Traditional FMA that I know of and not the popular FMA. Remember that old FMA's purpose is for finishing the job and evading and not much for show The practice and the idea has been passed and done by our ancestors... it worked for them, surely it can also work for us.

Please remember to add whatever music that you are comfortable with and it doesn't have to be tribal.