Okay, this'll take a bit. Sorry bout that...
Just a heads up, but you may want to go back and re-read what I've posted over the last few pages, perhaps a few times, before coming back to this. Yes, there's a fair bit to digest, but a lot is repeated, and the message is consistent.
Hmm, I really don't get what you mean by "old school thinking... traditional views" etc when you're actually flying in the face of the traditional (old) interpretations and definitions of the terms we're talking about here. And, for the record, you'll actually be hard pressed to find a more "old school" person here than me. Gotta say.
John, your own definition of grappling as a noun is that it is "the act of grappling", with your supplied definition of grappling being "seize hold of (someone)", so I really don't see any support for your contention that Aikido isn't grappling. In fact, your own supplied definitions, as well as the dictionary definition I supplied, categorically put Aikido in the grappling realm, whether you agree with it by understanding what the term means or not.
John, throwing is one aspect of grappling, they are not separate. If it is throwing, it is grappling. Your reading into the idea of "a struggle" is not relevant, honestly, and is only one word in part of a definition as an example (not the definition itself by any means). Okay?
Well, the main reason that Ueshiba Sensei didn't call Aikido "grappling" is that he didn't speak English.... but you really need to understand that "Jujutsu" doesn't mean "grappling", if we were to use a Japanese term as a translation of "grappling", it would be "torite". Interestingly, this is term used in some systems, but we'll come back to an example of that.
Firstly, Aikido can put the hurt on plenty. Second, Jujutsu is not the Japanese word for grappling (as stated). Third, that is not the defining aspect of Japanese Jujutsu. I would say that your understanding and experience of the breadth of Japanese Jujutsu systems is relatively limited.
For example, Yagyu Shingan Ryu has four diffferent categorisations for it's unarmed tactics and methods, including methods they describe as Torite (literally "capturing, or seizing hands", as close a translation for grappling as you'll find), which is designed for protection of another, and in a range of it's methods, are designed to not injure unduly.
These are not the "latest labels or definitions", though. It is actually quite the opposite. Grappling is an old term, and is being applied correctly here. And, just to make absolutely sure here, there really isn't any other layer to describing Aikido as a "grappling art" than to look at if it grapples. Which it does (grappling being the act of seizing and holding, particularly in a martial or combative sense).
The use of an English word to categorise Aikido has absolutely nothing to do with the Japanese being complicated or complex people, really.
I have to say, John, that this entire paragraph here is badly skewed and misinformed. There is nothing in the definition that means that it is inherently offensive. And when it comes to your sporting analogy, that really makes no sense whatsoever. In that regard, grappling would be used the same way "kick" would (for example, football is a "kicking" game), Aikido is used the way the different games themselves are used (football, rather than baseball to identify a game itself).
John, I've said before that Tomiki Aikido is not a hybrid. Tomiki Sensei, when Ueshiba moved from a Menkyo licencing system to a Kyu/Dan ranking system, had his Menkyo Kaiden converted to 8th Dan (same with other Menkyo Kaiden holders), and was, along with the other senior members, to "go and find his own Aikido". He brought across some training approaches from Judo, but the core of the art remained (and remains) Aikido, not a hybrid with Judo.
And really, you'll find things like a fireman's carry (slightly different, but still there) in Aikido, but I really have to say that the presence of a leg-pick or not in no way makes it more or less grappling. At all. And in regard to it being "still a Jujutsu" pre-WWII, it still is one. We could go through things like Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu (very much an "old school" Jujutsu system) and see many things that exist in modern Aikido. Once again, your take on what makes something Jujutsu or not seems a bit lacking, honestly.
Ha, hate to tell you this, Punisher, but I've mentioned "pins" as a major part of Aikido at least 5 or 6 times now.... starting with my first post in this thread! Also brought up the "Jigoku Dojo" moniker as well. That said, agree completely!
