Irresponsible Gracie Jiu-Jitsu ad?

[Transk53]

Silly question maybe, but why you guys say "from guard"?

 

[Hanzou]

Silly question maybe, but why you guys say "from guard"?

Its a position. No different than saying "From Mount" or "From Side Control".

There's also several Guard variations. Hell, seems like a new one comes out every week these days. A friend of mine recently showed me Worm Guard. I guess there's an entire system revolving around it. I'm not even trying that crap.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm not a big fan of the fear based advertising model, whether it's for martial arts, security systems, politicians, or anything else. That said, I don't see anything particularly unusual or irresponsible about this specific ad.

I've never been able to keep track of the "strangle" vs "choke" definitions, so I just go with "blood choke" or "air choke."

We don't really need to rehash the same old ground vs stand-up debate again in this thread do we? For what it's worth, I really like the way Bud Malmstrom explained it at a seminar I attended many years ago:

He asked "how many people here have ever seen or been in a real fight?" Just about everybody raised their hands.
"How many of those fights started out with the combatants at long range?"
A bunch of hands went up.
"Better learn to fight at long range then."

"How many of those fights ended up at close range?"
Just about all the hands went up.
"Better learn to fight at close range then."

"How many of those fights ended up on the ground?"
A bunch of hands went up.
"Better learn to fight on the ground then."

(Mind you, this was before the UFC and the popularity of BJJ. Bud's a smart guy.)

Silly question maybe, but why you guys say "from guard"?

It's a specific position on the ground. In ground fighting, positional control is extremely important and each position can be a major area of study in itself.

 

[Transk53]

Its a position. No different than saying "From Mount" or "From Side Control".

There's also several Guard variations. Hell, seems like a new one comes out every week these days. A friend of mine recently showed me Worm Guard. I guess there's an entire system revolving around it. I'm not even trying that crap.

Worm guard. Sounds delightful

 

[Danny T]

... "how many people here have ever seen or been in a real fight?" Just about everybody raised their hands.
"How many of those fights started out with the combatants at long range?"
A bunch of hands went up.
"Better learn to fight at long range then."

"How many of those fights ended up at close range?"
Just about all the hands went up.
"Better learn to fight at close range then."

"How many of those fights ended up on the ground?"
A bunch of hands went up.
"Better learn to fight on the ground then."

So much truth here.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Worm guard. Sounds delightful

You've got plenty of options ... closed guard, open guard, half-guard, deep half-guard, butterfly guard, spider guard, x-guard, half x-guard, z guard, de la Riva guard, reverse de la Riva guard, seated guard, rubber guard, worm guard, donkey guard, octopus guard, pancake guard, etc, etc. Most of them are strictly for sport grappling competition, but there are a good number with actual combative applications.

 

[Transk53]

You've got plenty of options ... closed guard, open guard, half-guard, deep half-guard, butterfly guard, spider guard, x-guard, half x-guard, z guard, de la Riva guard, reverse de la Riva guard, seated guard, rubber guard, worm guard, donkey guard, octopus guard, pancake guard, etc, etc. Most of them are strictly for sport grappling competition, but there are a good number with actual combative applications.

Okay. Some interesting names there. Thanks for that The Pancake, would that be like flat to the mat?

 

[Hanzou]

We don't really need to rehash the same old ground vs stand-up debate again in this thread do we?

Nah, I was just suggesting to RTKD that a little jiu-jitsu in addition to your existing skills never hurt anybody.

 

[Hanzou]

Okay. Some interesting names there. Thanks for that The Pancake, would that be like flat to the mat?

Pancake Guard:

Should have known that Keenan Cornelius was involved.

 

[Transk53]

Pancake Guard:

Should have known that Keenan Cornelius was involved.

Thankyou @Hanzou. Completely different from what I imagined it to be. Very interesting, wish I was able to try some BJJ, but will have to try and a tournament/competition one day.

 

[Hanzou]

Since we were talking about Guard and missionary position;

 

[Transk53]

Since we were talking about Guard and missionary position;

Can't help but think Colin Farrel and Kate Beckingsale in Total Recall 2009

 

[Carol]

I would take this whole thread on a side track with that statement but I'd get reported to the mods way to many times for what I want to say so I'll only say thats why I don't like playing (rolling) on the ground with other guys

What about other students?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Pancake Guard:

And I though Pancake Guard was some kind of attachment for the stove.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Thanks for the clarification. You didn't mention any of that the first few times around.

My question to you would be this; Do you think striking someone in "vital spots" is a high percentage method of disabling someone?

Depends on the strike.
Depends on the vital spot
Depends on the person.
Depends on the power of the strike.
Depends on the technique of the strike.

You stated that I'm applying a grappling hold and he's still pulverizing me. If I'm applying an effective grappling hold, then that implies that I'm in a superior position, as indicated in the picture I posted. There's very few situations where I would attempt a hold/lock/choke in an inferior position.

The general gist of my comment was that someone Paul_D said basing a self defence art on going to the ground would be the last thing he would do, to which you replied with the question "what if he is bigger and stronger than you?", indicating that you thought going to the ground is the only way to deal with someone bigger and stronger than you. I then pointed out that it is not. I was trying to say that, as it is with striking, if you are grappling some things do not work as well against a bigger, stronger opponent as they do with a smaller, weaker one. Selection of appropriate techniques and strategies is required in both cases.

As to your question, that's easy;

1. You miss./ He has good defense.
2. You don't hit the vital spot straight on.
3. His blows penetrate your defenses.

Again, you're trading blows with a physically superior opponent.

Again, if you're trading blows you're doing it wrong.

You mean ground defense like punching someone in the nuts while they're on top of you, or trying to scratch out their eyes while they have you in the headlock on the ground?

Is that what you think? What is it with grappllers and sport fighters fascination with groin strikes and eye gouges being the only things self defence people can do against them?

Would you be willing to share some of these ground defenses? I'd be very interested in hearing about them.

If I can find some videos then I can give you absolute proof. Why should I provide you with that when you never have despite numerous requests by me and others to do the same?

But far more likely.

If you say so.

I wasn't comparing it to running, I was comparing it to crawling and scooting.

Actually we were comparing mobility on the ground versus mobility standing up.

 

[Paul_D]

Really? The LAST thing you would do?

Yes, the chances of his friends, or even bystanders that think that can get away with a free shot, is too great a risk. Geoff Thompson recounts in his books cases of guys who were "tearing the other guy a new arsehole" only to be beaten or stabbed by his mates.

So yes, it's the last place I would want to be.

All your other points are completely valid, and I am not arguing with them. What I am saying is why does BJJ (or in fact any martial art, with the exception Judo, for that matter) try to advertise itself in terms of it's effectiveness in Self defence, when it is not designed to deal with the realities of civilian violence. Instead stick to promoting the actual benefits of your art.

BJJ wil get you fit, BJJ tests all it's techniques against trained/resisting opponents, In BJJ if a better way of doing something comes along you adopt it raterhthan yes "yeah thats great but I'm goign to keep doing it the old way becasue that's how some Japanese guy that has been dead for 100 years, and no one has met, did it". etc etc Promote these things insatead. You don't see Judo pretending it's great for self defence, it just promotes what it is good for.

 

[ballen0351]

I don't know about that Paul. Judo is great for self-defense and I know my judo school taught a self defense class to military and police officers. Judo doesn't really market itself period but if they did I'm sure self defense would be a big part of it. I'm not a big fan of BJJ either but it definitely has a place in self defense and can be quite good depending in the situation. You shouldn't be so quick to blow it off entirely. Great now you made me defend BJJ the sky is falling

 

[Hanzou]

The general gist of my comment was that someone Paul_D said basing a self defence art on going to the ground would be the last thing he would do, to which you replied with the question "what if he is bigger and stronger than you?", indicating that you thought going to the ground is the only way to deal with someone bigger and stronger than you. I then pointed out that it is not. I was trying to say that, as it is with striking, if you are grappling some things do not work as well against a bigger, stronger opponent as they do with a smaller, weaker one. Selection of appropriate techniques and strategies is required in both cases.

Actually that wasn't my indication at all. I was giving Paul an example of when utilizing Bjj (or grappling in general) could be appropriate. Going to the ground is certainly not the ONLY thing you could do, but taking someone to the ground is one of the best ways to neutralize their power and many of their natural weapons. Especially if they don't know how to grapple, which is frankly more likely than encountering someone who doesn't know how to hit you with their hands and feet.

I do agree with your latter point. Appropriate selection of techniques and strategies is always required.

Again, if you're trading blows you're doing it wrong.

I don't see how you avoid it, unless you somehow manage a knockout blow, or break their limbs with a strike. Good luck with that.

Is that what you think? What is it with grappllers and sport fighters fascination with groin strikes and eye gouges being the only things self defence people can do against them?

Blame yourselves. That's the standard response people use against grappling, and yes, its very silly. You're not going to be grabbing groins or scratching out eyes in an inferior position, which is exactly what a physically more powerful person will put you in if you don't know how to get out of it.

If I can find some videos then I can give you absolute proof. Why should I provide you with that when you never have despite numerous requests by me and others to do the same?

Because a guy doing Bjj (me) isn't nearly as interesting as a TKD practitioner performing ground defenses.

If you say so.

Oh, I definitely say so. Remember
this?

That can be applied in a matter of seconds against an opponent trying to tackle you.

Actually we were comparing mobility on the ground versus mobility standing up.

Actually no. You stated that you have NO mobility on the ground, and I was forced to correct you. I'm glad you've realized the error of your ways.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, the chances of his friends, or even bystanders that think that can get away with a free shot, is too great a risk. Geoff Thompson recounts in his books cases of guys who were "tearing the other guy a new arsehole" only to be beaten or stabbed by his mates.

So yes, it's the last place I would want to be.

All your other points are completely valid, and I am not arguing with them. What I am saying is why does BJJ (or in fact any martial art, with the exception Judo, for that matter) try to advertise itself in terms of it's effectiveness in Self defence, when it is not designed to deal with the realities of civilian violence. Instead stick to promoting the actual benefits of your art.

BJJ wil get you fit, BJJ tests all it's techniques against trained/resisting opponents, In BJJ if a better way of doing something comes along you adopt it raterhthan yes "yeah thats great but I'm goign to keep doing it the old way becasue that's how some Japanese guy that has been dead for 100 years, and no one has met, did it". etc etc Promote these things insatead. You don't see Judo pretending it's great for self defence, it just promotes what it is good for.

Well, let's get some misconceptions out of the way first;

1.While Bjj certainly specializes in ground techniques, those techniques are not the only thing a Bjj individual could or would use in a self defense situation. Heck, many Bjj practitioners cross train in wrestling, Judo, Sambo, and striking arts.

2.Saying the ground is the last place you want to be in a self defense situation is a valid argument. Completely ignoring ground fighting because of that argument is not.

3.No martial art is optimal against multiple attackers. I don't care what style you take. Further, a Bjj practitioner is not going to pull guard while going against multiple opponents anyway. As I stated in my previous post, if you find yourself in a situation where you're unarmed and you're up against several armed opponents, you messed up a long time ago.

To your question about why martial arts advertise themselves in terms of their effectiveness in self defense; Simple, because they are effective for self defense. Seriously, you can't see the self defense application of the Guard after getting tackled, a side kick to the side of the knee, a hip throw to counter a punch, a standing Waki-gatame to bring someone to their knees, or breakfalling to avoid cracking your head open?

All of it is useful in a self defense situation.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Actually no. You stated that you have NO mobility on the ground, and I was forced to correct you. I'm glad you've realized the error of your ways.

I was speaking in relative terms, next time I will try to be more explicit.