Irregularities in Kukkiwon Dan graduation exam

[Markku P]

First off, the problem with writing is no human expressions to back up what you are saying. So trust me when I say I was not at least bit upset, excited, angered or anything of the sort when I posted. You will know when I reach one of those states in my replies.

What you said, and what I took exception to was "WTF teaches Taekwondo". WTF does not teach TKD. And schools may fly the flag but is simply saying that they are part of that organization. Now there is a HUGE misconception out amongst some of those schools that WTF is standard for TKD. That is why you see people who claim they WTF certified black belts. KKW is the teaching system, WTF is the sport rules and regulations system. That is all I was trying to say.

I wonder do we need an institution like Kukkiwon at all? Is it better to have just one organization like WTF and they have their own technical committee who are taking care of technical aspects of TKD. ( just thinking..)

/Markku P.

 

[andyjeffries]

I wonder do we need an institution like Kukkiwon at all? Is it better to have just one organization like WTF and they have their own technical committee who are taking care of technical aspects of TKD. ( just thinking..)

I would disagree. I would say we need more Kukkiwon and less WTF (let the IOC administer international sporting bodies...then they can keep their fingers out of the martial art side)

 

[puunui]

A Korean Taekwondo media informed that “it has been discovered that a Kukkiwon employee and 8 other candidates passed the Dan graduation exam that the Kukkiwon carried out on June 11th even they submitted their thesis after the submission deadline.”

Imagine if it were like this: It has been discovered that a USAT/ITF/ATA/AAU employee and 8 other competitors won gold at a tournament that the USAT/ITF/ATA/AAU carried out on June 11th even though they submitted their tournament application after the submission deadline.

Would it be a big deal? I don't think so, so why this is one day extension for thesis submission is a big deal is beyond me. The Kukkiwon was being nice and wanted to help the candidates. If it were the other way around, if the Kukkiwon did not accept the thesis because it was one day late and flunked the 9 promotion candidates, then I am sure people would have complained about that as well.

 

[puunui]

I've said it a couple of times in this thread, but if your glasses are coloured towards "they generally try to help people, how could this situation be seen in that light?" then it makes lots of sense and is no big deal. If you think in terms of "the Kukkiwon is letting standards slip around the world, they're failing to even follow their own procedures, how bad are things?" then you're going to see it completely differently.

Exactly. To a republican, nothing a democrat does will ever be right, and vice versa. We are talking about a one day extension for submission of the thesis. People are making mountains out of something that is smaller than a molehill, because they are a republican/democrat who sees their opportunity and takes their shot at a democrat/republican. That's all it is. From my perspective what this thread has accomplished is identify the democrats from the republicans.

 

[Cyriacus]

First off, the problem with writing is no human expressions to back up what you are saying. So trust me when I say I was not at least bit upset, excited, angered or anything of the sort when I posted. You will know when I reach one of those states in my replies.

What you said, and what I took exception to was "WTF teaches Taekwondo". WTF does not teach TKD. And schools may fly the flag but is simply saying that they are part of that organization. Now there is a HUGE misconception out amongst some of those schools that WTF is standard for TKD. That is why you see people who claim they WTF certified black belts. KKW is the teaching system, WTF is the sport rules and regulations system. That is all I was trying to say.

Ah.

Yeah, the way i read it was more as a contradiction and lecture than casual statement. Text can be pesky that way.

By that interpritation, yes; That stands to reason.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Imagine if it were like this: It has been discovered that a USAT/ITF/ATA/AAU employee and 8 other competitors won gold at a tournament that the USAT/ITF/ATA/AAU carried out on June 11th even though they submitted their tournament application after the submission deadline.

Would it be a big deal? I don't think so, so why this is one day extension for thesis submission is a big deal is beyond me. The Kukkiwon was being nice and wanted to help the candidates. If it were the other way around, if the Kukkiwon did not accept the thesis because it was one day late and flunked the 9 promotion candidates, then I am sure people would have complained about that as well.

I think this is a case where it really does come down to intent and history. Did they allow the late submission BECAUSE they were a Kukkiwon employee, or do they allow others to also submit past the deadline (assuming, in all cases, some reason better than "my dog ate my homework")?
Personally, I'm a firm believer in the idea "those are guidelines, not rules", which occassionally upsets my boss. If there is a history of making exceptions, then this is no scandal. If, on the other hand, the deadlines are rigidly followed in other cases, then perhaps an uproar is in order.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

One mole hill = one small cut.

One mountain = 1000 cuts.

Where is the line in the sand? Where is the balance? Someone fails a test for being one meter away from where he's suppose to be, others get a pass for being late. One person who trains hard with blood, sweat and tears goes and busts their butt to do well on a Dan test while someone else isn't required to show up as long as 'someone' vouches for him and the check clears. One person promotes the organization as being fraternal and a great place to belong to and another person splits with the cash.

I'm just curious; when is enough enough? When has the line been crossed?

 

[puunui]

One mole hill = one small cut. One mountain = 1000 cuts.

Depends on your perspective. If your organization has issued less than 100, or even less than 25 dan certificates, perhaps one thousand cuts maybe a mountain. But 1000 cuts for an organization that has issued 7 million poom and dan certificates? Maybe not.

Where is the line in the sand? Where is the balance? Someone fails a test for being one meter away from where he's suppose to be, others get a pass for being late. One person who trains hard with blood, sweat and tears goes and busts their butt to do well on a Dan test while someone else isn't required to show up as long as 'someone' vouches for him and the check clears. One person promotes the organization as being fraternal and a great place to belong to and another person splits with the cash. I'm just curious; when is enough enough? When has the line been crossed?

It depends on whether you are a democrat or a republican. As for those who "split with the cash", the Kukkiwon cannot be responsible for the actions of those who use its name in order to do inappropriate things. I will say that at least one senior who issued falsified certifications have been sanctioned with Kukkiwon demotion and the loss of Kukkiwon promotion recommendation privileges. If you have a verifiable proof of a specific instance of fraudulent behavior, then my suggestion would be to send a letter to the Kukkiwon along with your evidence.

 

[puunui]

Wow. I knew a guy that failed his 5th dann exam, in korea, for finishing korryo one meter from where he started.

If he was one meter off his starting mark for Koryo, then I can almost guarantee that other aspects of his technical performance were off as well. Three feet off your mark is huge; it basically means that that person's stance is too wide, and most probably too long. It is definitely not a "molehill" situation for that person.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Depends on your perspective. If your organization has issued less than 100, or even less than 25 dan certificates, perhaps one thousand cuts maybe a mountain. But 1000 cuts for an organization that has issued 7 million poom and dan certificates? Maybe not.

Perhaps it should remain 'quality' instead of 'quantity'. McDonalds has served billions of Big Mac's, doesn't mean it's good for you :uhyeah:

 

[puunui]

Perhaps it should remain 'quality' instead of 'quantity'. McDonalds has served billions of Big Mac's, doesn't mean it's good for you :uhyeah:

At the same time, just because an organization is small, doesn't necessarily denote or infer quality. There are a lot of burgers places that thought they had high quality products to offer, but their concept never took off, mainly because of the principals involved. And it is hard to argue with the success of McDonalds, no matter what you think of their food.I'm sure the shareholders of McDonalds care about the criticisms of these types of competitors as much as the Kukkiwon cares about the criticisms from small, private martial arts organizations. I go to McDonalds, and I am sure you do too on occasion. The fact is that for every person out there screaming that they don't want Kukkiwon certification, there are 100 or 1000 others who are out there who do want it. Even the owners of martial talk recognize how popular Taekwondo is. Check out their description of this area.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

As a bodybuilder, I actually don't eat at McDonalds. But I'm pretty familar with their product. Curious though, did the president of McDonalds ever go to prison for embezzlement?

 

[puunui]

Curious though, did the president of McDonalds ever go to prison for embezzlement?

We already discussed President Kim's situation, and I don't feel like explaining again. There is way more to it than what you are stating, but for some reason, I don't think you are interested in it other than what you have stated above. I will say this, that I actually know Dr. Kim, and he is perhaps one of the most articulate, intelligent and visionary person that I have ever met, in Taekwondo or out. Even today, when he walks into a room, all eyes immediately turn to him, and when he speaks, you cannot help but want to listen to every word that comes out of his mouth. I am sorry that you have never had the opportunity to get to know him other than through hearsay. By the way, if you ask anyone in Korea today, republican or democrat, they will tell you that the charges against Dr. Kim were false, and that it was perhaps the biggest mistake that Korea ever made when the opposing political party in power went after him in the way that they did, for doing exactly what the previous administration instructed him to do.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I will say this, that I actually know Dr. Kim, and he is perhaps one of the most articulate, intelligent and visionary person that I have ever met, in Taekwondo or out. Even today, when he walks into a room, all eyes immediately turn to him, and when he speaks, you cannot help but want to listen to every word that comes out of his mouth.

Does he also walk on water?

We already discussed President Kim's situation, and I don't feel like explaining again.

That's okay, probably just another of those mole hills.

 

[miguksaram]

I wonder do we need an institution like Kukkiwon at all? Is it better to have just one organization like WTF and they have their own technical committee who are taking care of technical aspects of TKD. ( just thinking..)

/Markku P.

What you are proposing is what KKW does. WTF has nothing to do with technical aspects of TKD. They are merely a sports organization. If the WTF was sucked up by a some space time worm hole and ceased to exist, TKD would not suffer. There would just be no "sport" aspect to TKD.

 

[terryl965]

If I am not mistaken the KKW clearly states that if all paperwork is not done correctly or in at the approbiate time, they will not issue the certificate. Now with that being said if the KKW does not follow there own rule set than how does anybody expect the instructors to do this from far away?

 

[andyjeffries]

If I am not mistaken the KKW clearly states that if all paperwork is not done correctly or in at the approbiate time, they will not issue the certificate. Now with that being said if the KKW does not follow there own rule set than how does anybody expect the instructors to do this from far away?

I can't find anything about the timelines for thesis submission in the Kukkiwon promotion regulations. Do you know where it clearly states this?

But to be honest, if they did write it, I would absolutely expect it to be phrased in the form of a rule, even if they'd allow sometimes to bend it. If they wrote "sometime you should really send us a thesis" then they'd have a logistical nightmare. It's only natural it would be phrased as a hard deadline but everything's open to change it just depends how helpful people want to be.

 

[terryl965]

I can't find anything about the timelines for thesis submission in the Kukkiwon promotion regulations. Do you know where it clearly states this?

But to be honest, if they did write it, I would absolutely expect it to be phrased in the form of a rule, even if they'd allow sometimes to bend it. If they wrote "sometime you should really send us a thesis" then they'd have a logistical nightmare. It's only natural it would be phrased as a hard deadline but everything's open to change it just depends how helpful people want to be.

No Andy I could not find it either, I was sure it was in the previous one. Maybe they took it out and figured it was not impoortant anymore. The way the world is being late is on time for 90% of people or it seems that way.

 

[andyjeffries]

No Andy I could not find it either, I was sure it was in the previous one. Maybe they took it out and figured it was not impoortant anymore. The way the world is being late is on time for 90% of people or it seems that way.

Personally I'm absolutely anal about being on-time, but I am in the minority...

 

[puunui]

If I am not mistaken the KKW clearly states that if all paperwork is not done correctly or in at the approbiate time, they will not issue the certificate. Now with that being said if the KKW does not follow there own rule set than how does anybody expect the instructors to do this from far away?

The Kukkiwon expects you to treat your students with kindness and understanding that we are all human, just like how they would treat you. So if for some reason you needed a ONE DAY extension for the submission of your high dan thesis, then they would understand that and treat you with kindness by giving you that extension. What the Kukkiwon wouldn't expect you to do is see someone else getting a ONE DAY extension and then using that as some sort of accusatory weapon to be hurled at the Kukkiwon.