Iron Body Training

[OULobo]

That is actually not the case at all. Its an easy thing for people to belive to make them feel safer while practicing MA but that "optimal position" of which is "practically non-existent" is a basic fighting stance. 7sm

Consequently, what I meant by optimal position was optimal to get damaged not optimal to resist damage.

 

[loki09789]

"How many times do you get shin to shin contact in this type of training? What about forearm to shin? Maybe 3 times out of 20? 8/20? 20/20? No one knows exactly, that is why I practice IB training, I know exactly how conditioned each part of my body is, I don't have to assume its enough conditioning for what I need, I know it is."

Well, in my current style of training, we make regular contact with leg trapping, shin blocks for roundhouse kicks, palm slapping/striking, elbow striking..... the toughening aspect is built in to the regular practice. The level of intensity and impact power that you recieve/deliver is dependent on how much trust, skill and desensitization there is at that moment.

We might not make 'toughening' contact everytime, but it is progressive and consistent. Over the long haul, that works for me because beginners with little martial background can ease into it.

Sort of the frog in the boiling water analogy. Drop the frog in boiling water, he will jump right out, but set the frog in a pot of water and raise it to a boil gradually and it will sit there until it dies... at least in theory.

Paul M

 

[rmcrobertson]

Again, difference in basic approach. It seems to me that martial arts are all about learning to apply precisely the right amount of force in precisely the right place, and no more than that. Some are talking overkill; I, as befits a Good Kenpo Boy, am talking overskill.

 

[7starmantis]

Sort of the frog in the boiling water analogy. Drop the frog in boiling water, he will jump right out, but set the frog in a pot of water and raise it to a boil gradually and it will sit there until it dies... at least in theory.

Thats a very good analogy, that is exactly what I'm talking about. Consistency is the key to any result yielding training. Consistency is what I don't see happening in the "incidental contact" theory we were addressing. Thats my point. For me, I like to have consitency in every aspect of my training so I add IB for certain parts of my body that I don't feel get consistent contact.

There are very few cases when 8 lbs. will fail a knee. The most "vulnurable" position of the knee is fully extended and locked. This leaves it prome to hyper-extention because the joint is restricted by bone structure laterally and can only relieve stress in one direction. If the significant pressure is applied from that direction the joint will fail in the ACL and PCL. It is extrememly hard to force or strike the knee into this position because the natural defensive reaction of direct forward pressure is direct resistance or lateral resistance to relieve the stress by redirection. The 8 lb. case is usually a shearing or twisting motion, not a direct application like a strike, kick or impact.

In reality this is not correct. There are many cases when 8 pounds will fail the knee. The most "vulnerable position" of the knee has to be subject to what type of injury you are referring to. For hyperextension you are completely correct. For a more traumatic fracture of the actual joint or even patella you are not so. There are many types of fracture that can occur, but hyperextension rarely leads to one of them. If you could provide me with some sources that show the 8 pound figure to be "skewed" I would retract my statement, but having made a career on knowing the body and having spoken with head trauma surgeons from many Level 1 trauma centers in the nation, I can tell you there aren't any valid sources out there to refute that figure.

Consequently, what I meant by optimal position was optimal to get damaged not optimal to resist damage.

So was I.

7sm

 

[OULobo]

In reality this is not correct. There are many cases when 8 pounds will fail the knee. The most "vulnerable position" of the knee has to be subject to what type of injury you are referring to. For hyperextension you are completely correct. For a more traumatic fracture of the actual joint or even patella you are not so. There are many types of fracture that can occur, but hyperextension rarely leads to one of them. If you could provide me with some sources that show the 8 pound figure to be "skewed" I would retract my statement, but having made a career on knowing the body and having spoken with head trauma surgeons from many Level 1 trauma centers in the nation, I can tell you there aren't any valid sources out there to refute that figure.

7sm

Well, first off, I'm challenging your statment, so the burden of proof is on you and your statement. Second, trauma is generalized and is pretty distant from specializing in joint related injury. Next, fractures of the joint bone structure are very rare in comparison to ligiment damage, and there is virtually no chance of a healthy patella or the bone ends of the femur or tibia being damaged by eight pounds psi (since pounds is not a unit of pressure) of direct pressure. If you want to test it, take an eight pound weight and put it on your knee, choose any position you want, even locked out extention. Besides my own therapy sessions (which I don't cite as a source) to back up my claims, I can and will if desired get the statement of an MD with fellowship in sports medicine and the statment of a board cert. physical therapist.

 

[7starmantis]

Well, first off, I'm challenging your statment, so the burden of proof is on you and your statement. Second, trauma is generalized and is pretty distant from specializing in joint related injury. Next, fractures of the joint bone structure are very rare in comparison to ligiment damage, and there is virtually no chance of a healthy patella or the bone ends of the femur or tibia being damaged by eight pounds psi (since pounds is not a unit of pressure) of direct pressure. If you want to test it, take an eight pound weight and put it on your knee, choose any position you want, even locked out extention. Besides my own therapy sessions (which I don't cite as a source) to back up my claims, I can and will if desired get the statement of an MD with fellowship in sports medicine and the statment of a board cert. physical therapist.

LOL, this thread really isn't about this, but I provided proof in my original statement. I'm a physical therapy student now and I volunteer (for my PT credit hours) at East Texas Medical Center's Olympic Plaza Physical Therapy Center. My old roomate is a Physical Therapist with the Baylor Tom Landry Center, (Matt White) and he seems to agree, so I guess we could go back and forth all day long. I'm sure not every physician or PT in the nation would agree, but thats not the point. I sure would like to be there when you tell a nationaly recognized trauma surgeon that he is too generalized to know much about joint related injuries!

Your argument is actually validating my point. My point was why stick to the minimum needed to get the job done. You agreed with me that in the correct angle of application the statement is correct, so lets leave it at that. My point is still the same, why settle for the least amount when in a true self defense situation?

7sm

 

[OULobo]

LOL, this thread really isn't about this, but I provided proof in my original statement. I'm a physical therapy student now and I volunteer (for my PT credit hours) at East Texas Medical Center's Olympic Plaza Physical Therapy Center. My old roomate is a Physical Therapist with the Baylor Tom Landry Center, (Matt White) and he seems to agree, so I guess we could go back and forth all day long. I'm sure not every physician or PT in the nation would agree, but thats not the point. I sure would like to be there when you tell a nationaly recognized trauma surgeon that he is too generalized to know much about joint related injuries!

Your argument is actually validating my point. My point was why stick to the minimum needed to get the job done. You agreed with me that in the correct angle of application the statement is correct, so lets leave it at that. My point is still the same, why settle for the least amount when in a true self defense situation?

7sm

Dat's cool. I agree with the initial point. If you are going to to dedicate yourself to an attack don't take chances at limiting power too much.

 

[angrywhitepajamas]

Um,
In response to the origional question, I believe in the IB training, and have done it fairly sucessfully (for a hobbyist). While the Bad part is that if done incorrectly there will be permanent damage in the form of bone bruises, and damage to the underlying tissues. If it is done correctly It can stimulate an increase of the bone density in the affected area. Yes there are the "Iron monsters" out there who will go balistic and inflict bruises, some subcutaneoushematomas, and maybe break a bone or two . Usually though (at least from what i have seen in ueichi, or just because Im a "youngin") they will stay around for about long enough to satisfy their ego, feel some pain, get a dan rank and then leave for an mma school where they can then practice how they would wish. Note I mean no disrespect to mma stylists, but this is just what I have seen after aproximatly four years of practice.
But the bennifits are a variable increase of bone density. This is just annecdotal evidence from the people I train with. As far as I know there has been no studies on the effects of "IB" or an impact based regimin. That isn't accounting for the ways that different styles train. My kontikitai regimin will probably bear little in resemblance to 7sm's Mook Jong, and will mostlikely have differeing effects on how the resistance will be effected.

I have a few anecdotes on how the IB training has helped prevent accidental injury, but that is another thing entirely.

But I must ask some questions to everyone here. Not only do we need a definition for those of us who do not know the excercises being taught, but what is the time frame in which you are expecting to become more resistant to impacts?? Ie do you train for rapid quick resistance, or do you train so that you can retain the health benifits into oldage(ie80's and beyond)? In addition I must ask the mma preactitioners whether you all practice for competition or not. There is a world of difference between competition training and training in something that you can still practice when you are an old man and don't have the time energy or patience to pull the tecniques that will be brutal upon your body?

I do not mean to start a flame war over this, its just that the internet does not carry small things like tone of voice and body posture. Also it means that sometimes I cannot express the questions or ideas as accurately as I would like.

I have more questions, But I'm late for class as it is.

 

[moving target]

7* What you described in your response to me just sounds like normal training. Those are things that would go on in a lot of schools its just most schools don't do them to strengthen their body. Personally I had never heard of someone hitting a bag to strengthen their shins, I know a lot of people who hit bags to work on speed power technique and other aspects of fighting, but never with intent of hardening them selves. I guess what I'm saying is how do you concentrate on hardening your self when you hit something? It's obvious how you practice for power or for speed or for better technique, but how do you practice in such a way that you are concentrating on building bone mass? When someone talks about IB I tend to think of an exercise akin to strength training where you are subjecting your body to stress so it will adapt and become stronger. When I think of bag work those qualities don't come to mind because they tend not to be upper most in the mind of the person hitting the bag. You do get stronger hitting a bag but you hit a bag to work on the mechanics of your punch or kick, not to increase your bench, if you bench increases than that's really a secondary benefit. In my opinion the same applies to hardening. I don't want to put words into the angry laser monkey's mouth, but I think black bear was talking about dedicated IB training exercises, exercises where the main goal is to harden your body, not exercises where your body is hardened through the process of working on some other aspect of MA. To give an other weight lifting example, when you do lift weights generally your bone density will increase because of the stress of your tendons on your bones, but a weight lifting exercise is not targeted at increasing bone mass. The distinction I draw is sort of like the distinction between an isolated exercise like a forearm curl targeting and an integrated exercise like a clean. Yes the integrated exercise may strengthen your arm, but most people wouldn't call it a forearm exercise.

 

[rmcrobertson]

"My point was why stick to the minimum needed to get the job done. You agreed with me that in the correct angle of application the statement is correct, so lets leave it at that. My point is still the same, why settle for the least amount when in a true self defense situation?"

Maybe it's just me, but I had been under the impression that both the ethics and the mastery of a martial art has a lot to do with control. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the point here.

 

[8253]

It seems to me that a person can absorb more physical punishment by using the mind to get through pain, without continuously putting yourself in pain to attain the ability to take a beating. if that makes any sense.

 

[OULobo]

I personally don't believe in this type of training. I believe in conditioning the muscles, but most of the "IB" training I have seen is just destructive in the long term. There is a reason why most Muay Thai fighters only fight for few years and why there are so many retired older cripples. Many Thai masters laugh and look down on banging your shins with bottles and stickes to condition them. They say just kick the pads and heavy bag, and get your matches in, and forget the destructive training.

As for the amount of force, I have to say use as much as is efficient and effective, and err on the side of more. The situations that should require MAs, obviously require extreme measures, so there is no need to hold back. Think of the laws governing the use of a gun in self defense. Center mass and with intent to kill. Anything else will get you charged.

 

[7starmantis]

7* What you described in your response to me just sounds like normal training. Those are things that would go on in a lot of schools its just most schools don't do them to strengthen their body. Personally I had never heard of someone hitting a bag to strengthen their shins, I know a lot of people who hit bags to work on speed power technique and other aspects of fighting, but never with intent of hardening them selves. I guess what I'm saying is how do you concentrate on hardening your self when you hit something?

Its not a matter of concentration but of mechanics. I am talking about training specifically for hardening the body, some techniques which have only that purpose while others may have many purposes, is it so strange in MA to think of a technique having more than one purpose? To use a bag for IB is to focus on one specific body part, say the shin, and continuously make contact with the shin with power. Kicking the bottom of a muay thai bag is not exactly soft. Yet, that is still just one facet of the IB training I'm speaking of. When I say IB I mean the training in its entirety, not one aspect of it. I think your misunderstanding, most schools don't stand face to face and perform hardening techniques with a partner such as crescent kicks to the kidneys or ribs simply to strengthen that area for taking hits. This done with the correct intensity and power can and will condition your body, but not alone, it has to be used with a complete training process, as I mentioned. Another point to note is that I don't do this level of training year round, I'm getting ready to compete in some san shou matches and without conditioning your as good as dead. In my everyday training small amounts of iron shin and iron arm suffice.

Maybe it's just me, but I had been under the impression that both the ethics and the mastery of a martial art has a lot to do with control. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the point here.

You are very correct, control is one of the biggest parts of MA in general, I believe. My point is to not settle with the minimum that "may" save your life. In a true self defense situation, would you rely on one punch to seal the deal? Thats what I'm talking about, not relying on the minimum that in the perfect scenario could work and save your life.

It seems to me that a person can absorb more physical punishment by using the mind to get through pain, without continuously putting yourself in pain to attain the ability to take a beating. if that makes any sense.

I have two points on this,
1) True and correct IB training shouldn't be very painfull. A little discomfort, yes, large amounts of pain, no. Everyone is baseing thier opinions of IB on what they have seen that is incorrect. I've seen ALOT of sad mcdojo TKD schools in my life, but I don't write of TKD as an art.
2) Any training that is going to be usefull has to be realistic. If your training with absolutely no contact of any kind, do you really expect to fight in a Self Defense situation and know what your doing? I say that to say, pain is a big part of martial arts. We sit in horse stance for long periods of time and one of the reasons is to learn to cope with pain. If you don't know and understand pain, you could really get killed out there.

7sm

 

[moving target]

First I would like to say, I’m sorry if I sound confrontational. I’m not bringing this up repeatedly to try to refute what you say but rather to get a better understanding of what you’re doing. I practice JKD and Kali and in neither art have I been exposed to any type of body hardening, so it’s not so much that I have misconceptions about IB but rather no concept at all.

I am talking about training specifically for hardening the body, some techniques which have only that purpose while others may have many purposes, is it so strange in MA to think of a technique having more than one purpose?

No it isn’t strange at all, in fact the point of my previous post was to say that from the examples you have given it sounds like the IB training was multi-purpose training, or rather multi-effect training. I was curious about the techniques with only that purpose. I’m also curious how you would differentiate between practicing low Thai kicks for power vs. low Thai kicks for iron shin.

I’m curious about the training specifically targeted at IB as opposed to multi-purpose training simply because I’m familiar with most of the multi-purpose training.

 

[7starmantis]

I’m also curious how you would differentiate between practicing low Thai kicks for power vs. low Thai kicks for iron shin.

Well the difference being you start off with alot less power. You would need to start on a rather hard bag at first. As you progress youwould move to shin v shin contact with a partner. The intensity builds in small incriments. Your training for power is going to entail going full power on a rather softer type surface. Alot of people use wood for iron shin training, rolling it down their shin, or even tapping it down the shin. A mook jong is gerat for IB as its sturdy and hard enough, you just practice your techniques and it accomplished iron body while your training techniques.

That is at least what I'm refering to. I don't believe in taking it to the extreme of hitting each other with boards or staffs, or trying to bend spears on your throat and all, just simple conditioning for areas of the body prone to excesive contact during full contact fighting.

7sm

 

[loki09789]

Other than strikes to the head, I do this kind of contact training within the techniques and combinations that we feed each other. If I am training solo, I will use my rattan stick at the beginning and end to tap/strike the dense muscle areas that have a tendency to cramp up and the forearms/shins as well. That way, I am training students for contact prep, proper targeting, realistic neural reactions to contact (both yours and your observation of who you hit). It teaches the student to recognize the types of responses to a particular strike or combination because the contact is dead on.

I have done this with stick work too, of course very controlled and light.

I hate adjusting striking targets/distances with students for 'safety' when personal control and moving at a controllable speed is really the best safety measure. Again, head strikes are the only consession that I am willing to make - oh and dead on groin shots (either light,no contact but still dead on targeting)

Paul M

 

[Black Bear]

I was going to leave this thread be, but I just thought I'd throw this in from my poll on the MMA forum. "Jason" writes:

"No, but I do hit each testicles 40 times every morning with a wooden spoon to prepare for the armbar." (juji gatame=double-leg armbar) :lol:

 

[moving target]

Ok that does clear things up a lot for me. New question ;-)

As far as hardening goes, what's the diffrence between hitting a hard target soft and a soft target hard? Bone growth comes from the stress you place on the bone, and there isn't much tissue over your shin, so is it done more for desensitisation?

 

[7starmantis]

Ok that does clear things up a lot for me. New question ;-)

As far as hardening goes, what's the diffrence between hitting a hard target soft and a soft target hard? Bone growth comes from the stress you place on the bone, and there isn't much tissue over your shin, so is it done more for desensitisation?

Well, bone growth is really not effected by any type of conditioning. A big misconception is that you are strengthing or thickening the bone, that is not true. You are strengthening and thickening the muscle tissue around the bones, even the tissue and skin. Desensitisation is a dangerous game to play, many try for that, but I am of the belief it is not only bad for your fighting and "senseing" skill but bad for your body as a whole. When practicing IB on the shin we dont stay just on the main bone, but there are three areas to condition. Straight on, and both sides of the shin muslce.

The difference with hitting a hard target soft and a soft one hard is the physics. A soft target absorbes your power and energy, a hard target does not. It doesn' tmatter how hard you hit a "soft" target it will allways absorb. The hard target will not. That is what strengthens it. As you progress you use a little more power with the hard target thus increasing your conditioning.

That answer your question?

7sm

 

[moving target]

Yes but I did think that weight lifters saw an increase in bone density in bone structures that were put under stress (though I don't know of any study that supports that view, just something I heard). However the soft and hard target thing doesn't realy make sence to me. If you hit a soft target hard, it may yield but the force placed on whatever you are hitting with is increased a great deal (over a softer blow) because that target still resists..