Iron Body Training

[Black Bear]

HAHA, you make it sound... SO URBANE... *ahem* To me, alive, contact training does not mean that we do nothing but spar, nor does it preclude isolation training, etc. It just means that your training is alive and has good contact. This fellow has defined the word aliveness for our generation:

http://www.straightblastgym.com/pag...qa&parent=Press

http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/featurec...asp?article=222

http://www.straightblastgym.com/philosophy12.html#alive

http://www.straightblastgym.com/page.asp?section=matt&parent=Press

 

[Black Bear]

Bloody-- two of the links don't work. Here, let me try again...

http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/featurecontent/view.asp?article=222

 

[Black Bear]

ARGH. It's the freakin' ellipses. I copied and pasted the ellipses, not the full URL. Here, no hyperlink.

w3.blackbeltmag.com/featurecontent/view.asp?article=222
www.straightblastgym.com/page.asp?section=qa&parent=Press

 

[7starmantis]

SenseiBear makes an interesting point, which may have been overlooked in the debate. It may be that most of the MMA folks don't do any specific, deliberate, supplemental IB because they get the conditioning they need in the course of their integrated, alive, contact training. Whereas someone who does a lot of noncontact stuff may find that supplementary IB is helpful for them.

Ok, and the person who gets the conditioning they need in the course of their integrated, "alive", contact training but who also trains in "supplemental" IB. What about that person? You see, I'm not satisfied with just what I need to survive. I may get plenty of conditioning in my alive, contact training, but I'm not interested in having the same amount as the person I may be defending myself against. For me, I want to have over and above what I may need. Maybe its the old boyscout motto coming through from 20 years ago, but I want to have the odds stacked in my favour. You speak of "need" for IB, I face it as not just what I need but what will make me have more than my attacker.

7sm

 

[Black Bear]

Well yes, that's a fair distinction. Again, my belief is that supplemental IB doesn't have enough of a payout that folks should choose to invest their time in it. So the answer to your question is, "I think that person just plum shouldn't be doing IB. Some conditioning is required but I believe that anyone will get as much as they need from ordinary training. If they have more time to put in, they should be using that time to do more alive, contact stuff.

I DID some forms of IB. I picked up pennies from tabletops in quick succession. I twisted bundles of rods, banged my forearms against training partners', and rubbed down with that foul-smelling dit da jow. Now don't get the idea that I'm basing my opinion on my own, limited, negative experiences with IB. I'm not. (All I'm saying is that I'm not knocking something that I've just seen secondhand.) I'm basing it on the lack of objective, public, replicable evidence that is there to convince me that anyone OUGHT to do it, as well as the consensus of most of the MMA and RBSD community that they regard it as not particularly worthwhile.

Is Jim Lacey for real? Or that Brian... Brian whatever his name is. Gray I think. Personally, I don't care. if I get attacked by coconuts or rocks, then I guess I'll regret my pigheaded ignorance and come crawling back asking about your IB routine. But a good lot of folks have found incidental conditioning, built into alive, contact training, to be sufficient for knocking a guy unconscious or taking hits.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Or to quote the head of my school: "When my students start getting attacked by people wearing bamboo armor, I'll start teaching them how to punch through bamboo armor."

 

[Cruentus]

Or to quote the head of my school: "When my students start getting attacked by people wearing bamboo armor, I'll start teaching them how to punch through bamboo armor."

Dude, thats awesome...I'm using it! :lol:

 

[7starmantis]

Thats exactly my point, people get a little info about something and consider themselves as experts on said subject. Sadly, this lack of education gets passed around as the "know". Punching through bricks, bamboo, and grabbing pennies are all different from IB training. These techniques may be used at some school or gym under the name Iron Body, but they are far from true iron body techniques, or at least what I'm refering to as IB for this thread.

Is Jim Lacey for real? Or that Brian... Brian whatever his name is. Gray I think. Personally, I don't care. if I get attacked by coconuts or rocks, then I guess I'll regret my pigheaded ignorance and come crawling back asking about your IB routine. But a good lot of folks have found incidental conditioning, built into alive, contact training, to be sufficient for knocking a guy unconscious or taking hits.

I don't know of whom you are refering, maybe that should explain a bit about what I'm refering to when I say IB. Incidental conditioning is exactly that, incidental. Punching a wet noodle is sufficient for knocking a guy unconscious. Would you like to know the amount of pressure needed to shatter a knee joint per the head trama surgeon of Mother Francis Hospital systems? 8 pounds. That menas 8 pounds is suficient. If you were attacked, would you focus all your training on only hitting your assailent with 8 pounds of pressure? That is all it would take, so thats all you need, correct? I think not.

7sm

 

[Cruentus]

I know all about Iron Body...

I hang Iron wieghts from my nutz on a nightly basis!

PAUL

lol sorry I couldn't resist. :uhyeah:

 

[7starmantis]

I know all about Iron Body...

I hang Iron wieghts from my nutz on a nightly basis!

PAUL

lol sorry I couldn't resist. :uhyeah:

You know there are people who practice that. There is a guy who pulls trucks and busses and crap with his "iron crotch".

he says its good for sex too.

7sm

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Would you like to know the amount of pressure needed to shatter a knee joint per the head trama surgeon of Mother Francis Hospital systems? 8 pounds. That menas 8 pounds is suficient. If you were attacked, would you focus all your training on only hitting your assailent with 8 pounds of pressure?"

Yes, actually, if I were good enough, I would.

 

[moving target]

7star,
There seems to be a lack of understanding concerning what you are reffering to when you use the words "Iron Body". Could you please clarify this by giving an example routine and explaining how/what it hardens?

 

[Bod]

I don't count Mook Jong as IB training. The Mook Jong is just a CMA version of the Heavy Bag, which is sprung to resemble the resistance of an opponent, just like the heavy bag is weighted to resemble the resistance of an opponent. Toughening from the Mook Jong is similar to toughening from the heavy bag, since the aim of the mook jong is learning the grabbing, trapping and punching patterns first and foremost.

As for limbs knocking, it may or may not be useful, but it wouldn't be my foremost training, since I don't have the time for it. Rubbing my forearms together has been helpful, and only takes up a small amount of time, doesn't cause bruises and builds some muscle in a dynamic tension sort of way. I can do this on my own, and use my precious partner time for doing live drills or free practice (sparring).

Plunging your hands into hot gravel is stupid full stop. Markulous - don't do it. Your future wife is just going to love your leathery hands, and your future self is going to be of the same opinion on the subject of the state of your joints. The only point in plunging your hands into hot rocks is that an idiot can do it, and an idiot can teach it.

Forms are good, full stop. My boxing teacher teaches forms (shadow boxing - one two etc.), my judo teacher teaches forms (uchikomi) and if you want to train alone, and most serious martial artists do, it is very helpful. Even my piano teacher taught forms (scales, five finger exercises etc.).

I prefer training where my form is coached for a short time, and then I do lots of sparring. When I get home I practice the forms.

Having a poor understanding of how forms can be applied will make your fighting ability worse than someone with none at all. That would be your teachers fault and your fault, but these things should come out in live sparring, or more cooperative partner work.

 

[OULobo]

Would you like to know the amount of pressure needed to shatter a knee joint per the head trama surgeon of Mother Francis Hospital systems? 8 pounds. That menas 8 pounds is suficient. If you were attacked, would you focus all your training on only hitting your assailent with 8 pounds of pressure? That is all it would take, so thats all you need, correct? I think not.

7sm

Its not that simple. There is a ton of biomechanics involved in the different failure modes of a knee. If placed in an absolutly optimal position and with no restistance or opposing force the joint could fail with 8 lbs. of pressure, but those conditions are practically non-existant. The factors that have more effect than applied pressure include angle of application, bone density and hardness, body weight, joint position, prior injuries and scar tissue, muscle tone and amount of body fat.

 

[loki09789]

Muscle tonallity is the easiest factor in impact training that we can control and feel the development of.

Bone, tendon, ligement health and conditioning is a slow process of diet, safe progressive training and rest. You don't hear people say that they noticed how resilient their elbow joint has become, but you will hear people talk about how body changes and endurance/strength performance has changed.

Muscle tonallity is actually opposite of what most health/fitness people teach/percieve it to be. It is not the 'pumped' tight look of movie martial artists and body builders, or an athlete warmed up for action.

Good muscle tone is a healthy muscle that can function, structurally with very little 'tone' or tension. Unhealthy, weak, poorly balanced muscles are too 'toned' or tight because they are not strong enough to hold biomechanical balance, joint support without the extra tension.

Timing the exhale, muscle contraction and mental sharpness of any impact training program requires that the nervous system be the FIRST level of conditioning. Regardless of the type of impact training/iron training applied, the basic goal is to keep the body from 'freaking out' or shutting down when you get hit. Timing the muscle contraction creates an armored wall around the target area and dispurses the force out and away. That takes healthy muscle tone, solid training and conditioning as well as surface desensitization.

Conscious neurol awareness is best done by exercising and training the muscles to develop mind/body sensitivity. The rest grows from that.

Paul M

 

[7starmantis]

7star,
There seems to be a lack of understanding concerning what you are reffering to when you use the words "Iron Body". Could you please clarify this by giving an example routine and explaining how/what it hardens?

I can explain it again, however I think I have figured out why there is so much misunderstanding at least between me and Black Bear. We are of different mindsets when it comes to fighting. This may apply to alot of MMA guys or even guys of other systems. The partner training that is performed contains alot of full blocks and such but in my system we yield rather than block. In our blocks we only use as much power or energy as needed to redirect the punch/kick and then we can pluck that same punch, or trap. Relying on incidental contact would be like shadow boxing in front of a bag and relying on the times you might accidentally hit the bag as your conditioning for full punching. Our philosophy of iron body is that having developed say iron arm, when you do block or even parry you can use it to hurt the attacker at the same time. We also use blocks to "bounce" to another technique. I can attest to its effectivness, my sifu does it to me all the time, and thats on a small level. To many, they don't "buy into" that whole yield rather than block idea. They may get more incidental contact in partner training, but then again, they may not. To write off something like Iron Body as useless because you don't practice it is, in my opinion ignorance. It would be the same as me writing off the guys who would rather block than yield because I practice yielding.

As far as iron body goes it is the conditioning of basically any body part the the reason of hardness or toughness. It does not involve bruising or injury of any kind (sometimes that does happen, but that is not its intent, no one is perfect). It involves the use of inantimate objects such as a mook jong, or a heavy bag, or a muay thai bag, as well as the use of a live partner with drills specifically for hardening as well as drills for learning to block and yield using your iron arm. I do consider a mook jong to be IB as it is made from hardwood. The usage of it, regardless of technique instills iron arm or shin while practicing. In fact that is one of the major reasons for usage of a mook jong. There are variations that are not hard, but that is not a true MJ anymore to me.

7sm

 

[loki09789]

7 *,

At the higher levels of Okinawan MA's the blocking motions are considered limb attacks and a way to give the opponent a wake up call and reconsider attacking the MArtist. IsshinRyu philosophy, basically is to block three times to allow the attack a retreat, if they keep coming - strike hard (one punch one kill).

This sound similiar to your explanation of iron body training. I think the name and misconceptions of the training, and how it is accomplished are the biggest problems.

I trained in Okinawan, TKD, Kenpo and FMA's over the years and whether it was focused on or not, the body toughening and 'block as counter attack' benefit of dedicated training are there and mentioned at some point in all these systems.


CMA tend to take the CHI approach and elevates body toughening to a very high level of aspiration as well as an expression of how spiritually attuned the artist is... in a world of practical artistic training that type of approach is not too well recieved or understood.

Paul M

 

[7starmantis]

Its not that simple. There is a ton of biomechanics involved in the different failure modes of a knee. If placed in an absolutly optimal position and with no restistance or opposing force the joint could fail with 8 lbs. of pressure, but those conditions are practically non-existant. The factors that have more effect than applied pressure include angle of application, bone density and hardness, body weight, joint position, prior injuries and scar tissue, muscle tone and amount of body fat.

That is actually not the case at all. Its an easy thing for people to belive to make them feel safer while practicing MA but that "optimal position" of which is "practically non-existent" is a basic fighting stance. Knee bent sufficient weight on the joint. It is true that angle of execution has a great deal to do with it, you are correct there, but who would execute a knee kick from a straight on position against a resisting knee joint? If the person is resisting at the knee expecting it, a nice round house to the head would work wonders. My point it, most knee kicks are not ones you would be expecting and most often are from an angle that would aggrandize damage to the joint.

In actuality you have made my point for me. What is simply enough to do the job is not what you should rely on. Its that simple, thanks

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

CMA tend to take the CHI approach and elevates body toughening to a very high level of aspiration as well as an expression of how spiritually attuned the artist is... in a world of practical artistic training that type of approach is not too well recieved or understood.

That is true, but in my own training I leave the spiritualistic part out. I focus simply on the physical. It gets to me sometimes when people assume I'm in the extreme spiritual relm of CMA just because they see what system I train in. I'll get over that however. I do try to keep my training as scientific as possible, which is why I have problems with the "incidental contact" theory. What are the numbers? How many times do you get shin to shin contact in this type of training? What about forearm to shin? Maybe 3 times out of 20? 8/20? 20/20? No one knows exactly, that is why I practice IB training, I know exactly how conditioned each part of my body is, I don't have to assume its enough conditioning for what I need, I know it is.

Thats my reasoning.

7sm

 

[OULobo]

That is actually not the case at all. Its an easy thing for people to belive to make them feel safer while practicing MA but that "optimal position" of which is "practically non-existent" is a basic fighting stance. Knee bent sufficient weight on the joint. It is true that angle of execution has a great deal to do with it, you are correct there, but who would execute a knee kick from a straight on position against a resisting knee joint? If the person is resisting at the knee expecting it, a nice round house to the head would work wonders. My point it, most knee kicks are not ones you would be expecting and most often are from an angle that would aggrandize damage to the joint.

In actuality you have made my point for me. What is simply enough to do the job is not what you should rely on. Its that simple, thanks

7sm

Not arguing the how much force you should use issue. I do know however that many people state the skewed fact that "it only take 8 lbs. of pressure to break a knee." There are very few cases when 8 lbs. will fail a knee. The most "vulnurable" position of the knee is fully extended and locked. This leaves it prome to hyper-extention because the joint is restricted by bone structure laterally and can only relieve stress in one direction. If the significant pressure is applied from that direction the joint will fail in the ACL and PCL. It is extrememly hard to force or strike the knee into this position because the natural defensive reaction of direct forward pressure is direct resistance or lateral resistance to relieve the stress by redirection. The 8 lb. case is usually a shearing or twisting motion, not a direct application like a strike, kick or impact. Most kickboxers have been hit on the knee with much more force than 8 lbs. in just about every conceivable angle and have no lasting damage. 8 lbs might do the trick if it is applied to a 150 lb guy with a 100 lb pack on his back or a 90 yr old with osteoperosis. Think of joints like a frame of rubberbands, the force has to be enought to break the frame (bones) or the rubberbands (ligiments) have to be so stressed already that, with only a little extra force, they fray or tear.