I was curious as to how many of you practice some sort of iron body training? How many of you buy into this training practice? Anyone have any stories about this type of training?
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Iron Body Training
- Thread starter 7starmantis
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #2
Which gyms are these "top gyms" you mention? I think this disagreement is a matter of a lack of knowledge about iron body training. Most IB training is done by live opponents. I'm not sure what your not agreeing with. It seems we are saying the same things. You are saying IB is not used by "smart" MAist but what you mention as the practice of "smart" MAist is IB.Black Bear said:
I'm actually speaking through my experience with several san shou and full contact fighters I presonally train with, and from exposure I have personally had with some MMA schools in my general vacinity.
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markulous
Guest
We haven't started yet but what my Sifu did was instead of Iron Hands we are going to do Fire Hands. Fire melts iron so it's basically the next level sort of thing. That consists of getting a wok over a fire and putting things in their to punch with your knuckles and palms. Starting with sand then with small gravel, then bigger rocks, etc etc.
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Black Bear
Guest
Maybe we should define what each of us means by IB. When I say IB, I mean "dedicated", specific training for the purpose of toughening a part of the body, inuring ig against hard contact. You'd either (for instance) hit something like a post or plate, plunge your hands into rice, beans, pebbles, or the like, kick a banana tree, and stand face to face with a guy banging your forearms or shin directly against his in a pattern. They may rub dit da jow on the surface afterward to prevent injury or blindness (conventional wisdom is that if you condition your fingertips, this will activate pressure points that make you go blind, unless you apply ointment... maybe so, I wouldn't know).
When someone works a heavy bag, isolation-spars, etc. and they're working on technical stuff, power, speed, and combinations, there's conditioning that happens "incidentally". That would not be IB training.
Several years ago I was starting to learn to play the guitar. I mentioned to a musician friend of mine that i was getting a callus. (All guitar players do, on the fingertips of their nondominant hand.) He looked, and said "Pfft, that's nothing." Indeed, after a couple weeks of practicing three chords, it was just two little ones on the index and middle finger, nothing like what you'd see on a serious veteran player. Now do the calluses MAKE you a better player? Well, kind of, yes, you can slide through the chords and keys without pain. Would a novice guitar player rub his fingertips against sandpaper, or plunge them into big jars of beans to make them more callous? Goodness no. All the callussing they'll need will occur when they're playing guitar. It's a natural adaptation of the body to the stress of the activity.
As you can see, I am not a fan of IB training.
My understanding of the term IB is that it involves as much "chi work", breathing and internal energy flow stuff, as it does this banging stuff, but I'm using the term the way 7*m seemed to be using it in the other thread. If I misinterpreted you, please give us a definition of IB that you believe to be most precise, since you're the one who introduced the term into the discussion this time round.
Now there are MMA folks with old school muay Thai coaches in their studios, who will kick stuff with their shins (not heavy bags) and drop medicine balls on their bellies, but my understanding was that this was falling out of favour as a practice. But after 7*m brought this up, I thought, hey, I could be wrong. So I posted to an MMA board and asked who does conditioning in the sense of "hardening" stuff extraneous to their technical training. Not weights and the like. This is what I heard back:
"That particular type of tempering or conditioned endurance / tolerance is best gained through direct contact and immersion in what you are building it for." -Luis Guttierez, head coach of OneDragon, an SBG affiliate.
"I agree with Luis. On top of that, the classical TMA conditioning drills often lead to injury and permanent deformation of the striking limbs. What's the point of that?"
(I'm not saying I agree with this person, the quote is only there to indicate that this is not the practice at his gym.)
"As the intensity of what you are doing builds you will progressively be conditioned.It's very important to also put it in perspective. What are you conditioning and why? Are you pounding you forearms? Why? The only area I see beneficial for tempering would be the shin IF you are doing something that has round kicking with shins, and only because they will be clashing in training and more importantly in competition."
"I have found over the years that kicking a sand bag is best to supplement your training." (So this guy does do it.)
"It's tomfoolery (IMO) and a waste of valuable training time. Punch the proper targets with the proper penetration and power (moderate) and your hands should be fine."
"Not an incredibly useful way of training."
I do not train in the top gyms, though I try to visit some when I go south. But when I do go around and train...
- SBG affiliates --none do IB
- Arashi do: Erik Paulson affiliate --no IB
- Rebellion JJ: Machado Black Belts--no IB
- Miles National kickboxing --no IB
Again, I'm speaking of direct, "on-purpose" IB training extraneous to conventional bag work. Of course, if anytime you train with hard contact you call it IB, then of course every good MMA gym does IB, but then there's really no debate.Like I said, I know that there are gyms out there with an old-school muay Thai drill sergeant who are doing IB as we speak, but ON THE WHOLE, most MMA folks I know kind of smirk when they hear about it.
When someone works a heavy bag, isolation-spars, etc. and they're working on technical stuff, power, speed, and combinations, there's conditioning that happens "incidentally". That would not be IB training.
Several years ago I was starting to learn to play the guitar. I mentioned to a musician friend of mine that i was getting a callus. (All guitar players do, on the fingertips of their nondominant hand.) He looked, and said "Pfft, that's nothing." Indeed, after a couple weeks of practicing three chords, it was just two little ones on the index and middle finger, nothing like what you'd see on a serious veteran player. Now do the calluses MAKE you a better player? Well, kind of, yes, you can slide through the chords and keys without pain. Would a novice guitar player rub his fingertips against sandpaper, or plunge them into big jars of beans to make them more callous? Goodness no. All the callussing they'll need will occur when they're playing guitar. It's a natural adaptation of the body to the stress of the activity.
As you can see, I am not a fan of IB training.
My understanding of the term IB is that it involves as much "chi work", breathing and internal energy flow stuff, as it does this banging stuff, but I'm using the term the way 7*m seemed to be using it in the other thread. If I misinterpreted you, please give us a definition of IB that you believe to be most precise, since you're the one who introduced the term into the discussion this time round.
Now there are MMA folks with old school muay Thai coaches in their studios, who will kick stuff with their shins (not heavy bags) and drop medicine balls on their bellies, but my understanding was that this was falling out of favour as a practice. But after 7*m brought this up, I thought, hey, I could be wrong. So I posted to an MMA board and asked who does conditioning in the sense of "hardening" stuff extraneous to their technical training. Not weights and the like. This is what I heard back:
"That particular type of tempering or conditioned endurance / tolerance is best gained through direct contact and immersion in what you are building it for." -Luis Guttierez, head coach of OneDragon, an SBG affiliate.
"I agree with Luis. On top of that, the classical TMA conditioning drills often lead to injury and permanent deformation of the striking limbs. What's the point of that?"
(I'm not saying I agree with this person, the quote is only there to indicate that this is not the practice at his gym.)
"As the intensity of what you are doing builds you will progressively be conditioned.It's very important to also put it in perspective. What are you conditioning and why? Are you pounding you forearms? Why? The only area I see beneficial for tempering would be the shin IF you are doing something that has round kicking with shins, and only because they will be clashing in training and more importantly in competition."
"I have found over the years that kicking a sand bag is best to supplement your training." (So this guy does do it.)
"It's tomfoolery (IMO) and a waste of valuable training time. Punch the proper targets with the proper penetration and power (moderate) and your hands should be fine."
"Not an incredibly useful way of training."
I do not train in the top gyms, though I try to visit some when I go south. But when I do go around and train...
- SBG affiliates --none do IB
- Arashi do: Erik Paulson affiliate --no IB
- Rebellion JJ: Machado Black Belts--no IB
- Miles National kickboxing --no IB
Again, I'm speaking of direct, "on-purpose" IB training extraneous to conventional bag work. Of course, if anytime you train with hard contact you call it IB, then of course every good MMA gym does IB, but then there's really no debate.Like I said, I know that there are gyms out there with an old-school muay Thai drill sergeant who are doing IB as we speak, but ON THE WHOLE, most MMA folks I know kind of smirk when they hear about it.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
To agree with the last poster, the problem is that all such methods involve creating scar tissue, and some level of permanent physical damage.
It may be that there are indeed situations in which one becomes willing to trade off little things like, say, tactile sensitivity, in order to build scar tissue. personally, I suspect that those, "situations," don't have much to do with fighting.
With any luck, you're going to be training for a long time. Why deliberately cripple yourself?
It may be that there are indeed situations in which one becomes willing to trade off little things like, say, tactile sensitivity, in order to build scar tissue. personally, I suspect that those, "situations," don't have much to do with fighting.
With any luck, you're going to be training for a long time. Why deliberately cripple yourself?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #6
First to address Black Bear:
True iron body includes both the usage of inanimate objects as well as live partners. Some is done through general contact, that which is gained while doing "other" techniques. Some is gained while doing specific drills for Iron Body training. And some is gained by doing specific IB techniques for specific parts of the body. Most of true iron body is done with a live partenr while doing drills comprised of more than technique simply for IB conditioning. I see that you did some research about MMA using IB training. The gyms you listed show that I must have misrepresented what I ment by using the term "MMA". However, to base your belife of a training technique on the usage by a certain style, whatever it may be, is limiting your argument. When I talk about MMA guys using IB training I'm talking about guys competing in San Shou regularly, or UFC type fighting events on a regular basis.
Now, that being said, I agree with you that spending more time on IB can be detrimental as it can take away from other parts of your training, but to step into a full contact match with no conditioning is simply uneducated. The reason I practice iron body training is not simply for my san shou or fighting events, but for self defense. The difference being that me executing a double forearm block on a kick is much more devistating to the kicker now then it was 2, 3, or 4 years ago without the conditioning and training. Belive it or not, it really doesn't change the fact that it improves fighting and chances or survival in a true self defense situation.
To address rmcrobertson:
This is a common misconception about Iron Body training. If you are creating any type of scar tissue you are doing it wrong, WRONG, WRONG! If you damage the body you have crossed the line from conditioning to injuring. Many believe to injure and create scar tissue helps, it does not however. Any permanent physical damage is the result of incorrect training.
7sm
True iron body includes both the usage of inanimate objects as well as live partners. Some is done through general contact, that which is gained while doing "other" techniques. Some is gained while doing specific drills for Iron Body training. And some is gained by doing specific IB techniques for specific parts of the body. Most of true iron body is done with a live partenr while doing drills comprised of more than technique simply for IB conditioning. I see that you did some research about MMA using IB training. The gyms you listed show that I must have misrepresented what I ment by using the term "MMA". However, to base your belife of a training technique on the usage by a certain style, whatever it may be, is limiting your argument. When I talk about MMA guys using IB training I'm talking about guys competing in San Shou regularly, or UFC type fighting events on a regular basis.
Now, that being said, I agree with you that spending more time on IB can be detrimental as it can take away from other parts of your training, but to step into a full contact match with no conditioning is simply uneducated. The reason I practice iron body training is not simply for my san shou or fighting events, but for self defense. The difference being that me executing a double forearm block on a kick is much more devistating to the kicker now then it was 2, 3, or 4 years ago without the conditioning and training. Belive it or not, it really doesn't change the fact that it improves fighting and chances or survival in a true self defense situation.
To address rmcrobertson:
This is a common misconception about Iron Body training. If you are creating any type of scar tissue you are doing it wrong, WRONG, WRONG! If you damage the body you have crossed the line from conditioning to injuring. Many believe to injure and create scar tissue helps, it does not however. Any permanent physical damage is the result of incorrect training.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Actually, judging by this thread so far, it is a common correct perception, since so far such training, "consists of getting a wok over a fire and putting things in their to punch with your knuckles and palms. Starting with sand then with small gravel, then bigger rocks, etc etc."
I'd be interested in reading what you have in mind. Otherwise, I'd consider such training to be either a) part of "normal," martial arts training, b) the deliberate creation of scar tissue.
I'd be interested in reading what you have in mind. Otherwise, I'd consider such training to be either a) part of "normal," martial arts training, b) the deliberate creation of scar tissue.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #8
I didn't state it was a good idea to stick your hand in fire. Will it yield the desired effects, probably. Will it more than likely hurt you in the future, probably. What I'm talking about is correct, precise training. Not injury. Training is the absence of injury, not the existence of it.rmcrobertson said:
In our training, if you as much as bruise, you have injured your body, and thus crossed from conditioning into injury. While your body is injured you can't gain conditioning, so to train right under unjury while dangerous (as to creating injury, ie bruising) is neccessary to condition the body.
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Black Bear
Guest
Yes 7*m I think when we talk about IB we're mostly talking about the same thing. But I specifically refer to any training method with the mechanical hardening of the body or body parts as its primary objective. When you spar full-contact, you harden. When you roll for submission, or pummel, you harden. When you punch and kick a bag for power, you harden. But the hardening is incidental. They're not IB. On the other hand, if you kick a banana tree, I call that IB. If you face a guy and bang your forearms in a pattern, you're someone may say you're practicing blocking, but you're really not practicing any timing, real energy, or movement. So really what your purpose is is to toughen the limbs. That makes it IB.
And yes, I was also talking about people who are in "UFC-type" competitions regularly. Arashi do, SBG (Thornton group), Miles National, Machados, Rebellion, Paulson group, etc. ALL have very strong, very favourable competition records in NHB in North America. Never having been to Rio, Lodi, or Tokyo, I can't speak for other "top gyms" such as Lion's Den, which is why I asked around online. (Of course, most gyms are the same in this sense: of fifty to a hundred people that go through their doors in a year, five or ten actually fight in competition.) I cannot personally produce an affidavit saying that the Gracies denounce IB. San shou folks, I shouldn't be surprised a lot of them would do IB, but they're a tiny, tiny minority in the NHB/MMA community. I'm not saying you're sinocentric, but don't assume their methods and practices to be typical.
And yes, I was also talking about people who are in "UFC-type" competitions regularly. Arashi do, SBG (Thornton group), Miles National, Machados, Rebellion, Paulson group, etc. ALL have very strong, very favourable competition records in NHB in North America. Never having been to Rio, Lodi, or Tokyo, I can't speak for other "top gyms" such as Lion's Den, which is why I asked around online. (Of course, most gyms are the same in this sense: of fifty to a hundred people that go through their doors in a year, five or ten actually fight in competition.) I cannot personally produce an affidavit saying that the Gracies denounce IB. San shou folks, I shouldn't be surprised a lot of them would do IB, but they're a tiny, tiny minority in the NHB/MMA community. I'm not saying you're sinocentric, but don't assume their methods and practices to be typical.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #10
Typical or not, doesn't change the effectivness of the training itself. Are you saying the training is ineffective? Our arguing over wether it is considered typical in a certain sect of MAist is moot.
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Black Bear
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No, I agree that it doesn't particularly matter (or it shouldn't) whether so-and-so does it. It was just that I was totally shocked when you asserted that IB was undergoing a renaissance in MMA. I've been in MMA for about six years and have known maybe a couple people in MMA who do it, and no one whatsoever in any top gyms. (The few times it was mentioned was with obvious annoyance at what they regarded as a wasteful and pointless practice.) I posted some findings, you disputed their validity, I attempted to clarify.
The sense in which it DOES matter, though, would be that it indicates that the most successful MMAers that we can speak for, have NOT found that they needed IB in order to be succeessful at what they do. IF we regard MMA as any kind of valid measuring rod for fighting/sd skill development (though we can certainly agree that it lacks ECOLOGICAL validity) then we might say that it is an indirect argument that IB doesn't appear after all to be all that important. If one does not accept it as a measuring rod (on the grounds of ecological validity or any other reasoning), that's fine with me. No blade-impervious skin off my back, so to speak.
As to its effectiveness, then. It certainly seems more sensible to present the evidence for the efficacy of IB in enhancing fighting ability (full-contact competition-wise) as well as street survivability, than for one person to just try to assert that it's worthless. Specifically, it is rather difficult, and slightly stupid, to assert a universal negative ("IB could NEVER enhance fighting skill.") and the burden of proof ought to be on the person who is advocating the practice. How about, then, if you present an opening statement on your belief in IB, including some good arguments for its use?
The sense in which it DOES matter, though, would be that it indicates that the most successful MMAers that we can speak for, have NOT found that they needed IB in order to be succeessful at what they do. IF we regard MMA as any kind of valid measuring rod for fighting/sd skill development (though we can certainly agree that it lacks ECOLOGICAL validity) then we might say that it is an indirect argument that IB doesn't appear after all to be all that important. If one does not accept it as a measuring rod (on the grounds of ecological validity or any other reasoning), that's fine with me. No blade-impervious skin off my back, so to speak.
As to its effectiveness, then. It certainly seems more sensible to present the evidence for the efficacy of IB in enhancing fighting ability (full-contact competition-wise) as well as street survivability, than for one person to just try to assert that it's worthless. Specifically, it is rather difficult, and slightly stupid, to assert a universal negative ("IB could NEVER enhance fighting skill.") and the burden of proof ought to be on the person who is advocating the practice. How about, then, if you present an opening statement on your belief in IB, including some good arguments for its use?
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Black Bear
Guest
BTW, for the purpose of this thread, will you agree to define IB as training which is DELIBERATELY AND SPECIFICALLY purposed for the mechanical toughening of any body part or body parts as a whole? Because mechanical toughening (callussing, toning, calcification, and any other kind of mechanical toughening) will inevitably occur in the course of any contact training--contact sparring or power training on BOB or a bag... and there can be no argument that contact training is necessary for the development of fighting skill. If Alfred does an "alive" grip strength drill (such as grasping the wrist or hand of a training partner who is trying to stab him with a rubber knife) and then goes and twists a bundle of rods in his hands, he's doing IB. If Ben ONLY does the alive grip strength drill, he's not doing IB, EVEN THOUGH Alfred regarded it as integral to his IB.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #13
I think we misunderstand each other. I didn't make any statements even hinting towards a "renaissance" of IB in MMA. What my statement was is that there are many MMAist who practice it. Your assertion of IB not being in "top gyms" is moot as there is no true way to decide which are the "top gyms". Again however, I didn't dispute any of your findings. I stated that by reading your findings I realized I misrepresented what I ment to say. Don't twist around my words to fit your argument.Black Bear said:
I think you are basing your argument on your personal experience, which is fine, but you can't assert that your experience is the norm for every MAist. What do you mean by "most successful"? Isn't that a little subjective? Who do you mean by this statement? Your very good at using language to funnel everyone to your argument, but it doesn't make it correct. I also stated that I don't see how holding MMA or any one specific system of MA as a standard could be considered intellegent or open minded thinking. I know all types of MAist who study a variant of systems who use and do not use IB.Black Bear said:
Again you are failing to answer any of the issues but try and turn it around for me to answer what I allready stated. All I asked was if you believed it to be ineffective. I didn't ask you to provide proof to the usage of IB in anyones training, or even proof of the effectivness of IB, simply wether or not you believe it to be efective or not. If you can't find any proof to your belief, why then do you believe it? The only proof I have is the effectivness of the training. The changes it has made in my training, my partners training, my sifu's training, and my sigung's training. Apart from that, what proof would you legitimize?Black Bear said:
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Perhaps it would be helpful if you sketched out exactly what this training consists of.
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Black Bear
Guest
*throws up hands in despair* What's in the thread speaks for itself to anyone reading it.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #16
I'm not sure if your asking me, but any drill or technique designed to increase the "hardness" of the specific body part, or to condition said body part to taking kicks or hits from opponants. That includes mook jong training as well as live partner training.rmcrobertson said:
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Ah. It's regular martial arts training. So what's the big deal?
SenseiBear
Blue Belt
Whew - back and forth...
I practice some Iron Body conditioning - and spent time working Iron Fist. I would say it is effective - and that most professional MMA fighters or Boxers don't need it.
Blackbear is right that contact training creates body hardening... the MMA fighters I know do HEAVY contact training. For hours. Every day. If you are going to be hitting a bag or opponent for hours daily, and taking heavy blows from an opponent daily, your hands and body will harden - no additional IB training needed.
If, However, your training consists of 15 hours a week, mostly drills, forms, techniques, and only 3 to 5 hours a week either delivering or receiving impacts, it will take a long time for your body to harden, and the frequency of impact may in cases not be enough to ever harden some things adequately. In this case, careful, focused IB training can harden your weapons and steel your body in a more reasonable timeframe, help reduce the risk of injury, and once you have hardened, it is easier to maintain than it is to build.
my 2 cents - SB
I practice some Iron Body conditioning - and spent time working Iron Fist. I would say it is effective - and that most professional MMA fighters or Boxers don't need it.
Blackbear is right that contact training creates body hardening... the MMA fighters I know do HEAVY contact training. For hours. Every day. If you are going to be hitting a bag or opponent for hours daily, and taking heavy blows from an opponent daily, your hands and body will harden - no additional IB training needed.
If, However, your training consists of 15 hours a week, mostly drills, forms, techniques, and only 3 to 5 hours a week either delivering or receiving impacts, it will take a long time for your body to harden, and the frequency of impact may in cases not be enough to ever harden some things adequately. In this case, careful, focused IB training can harden your weapons and steel your body in a more reasonable timeframe, help reduce the risk of injury, and once you have hardened, it is easier to maintain than it is to build.
my 2 cents - SB
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Black Bear
Guest
SenseiBear makes an interesting point, which may have been overlooked in the debate. It may be that most of the MMA folks don't do any specific, deliberate, supplemental IB because they get the conditioning they need in the course of their integrated, alive, contact training. Whereas someone who does a lot of noncontact stuff may find that supplementary IB is helpful for them. The thing is, I don't believe--and this is opening a whole new can of worms--that a lot of that noncontact dead pattern stuff such as forms contributes all that much to skill development in the first place.
And all of this is a matter of degree of course. Our gym has only maybe three guys who actually compete in MMA or sub-grappling--the rest are hobbyists and self-defensers, with day jobs (like me). In training six hours a week, we get enough conditioning for what we want... whereas they train many more hours to get what they want.
And all of this is a matter of degree of course. Our gym has only maybe three guys who actually compete in MMA or sub-grappling--the rest are hobbyists and self-defensers, with day jobs (like me). In training six hours a week, we get enough conditioning for what we want... whereas they train many more hours to get what they want.
Black Bear said:
You're absolutely right of course. All that forms junk is a load of bunk. I say, take a brand new student off the street, with no prior combat training, and put him in the ring. Sink or swim! That's my philosophy. Oh, we might give him a few pointers about proper punching technique, or maybe demonstrate how to do a block or cover, but he sure as hell isn't gonna waste anybody's time practicing this stuff for god's sake. We're in a hurry after all. I mean really, the way we are getting attacked every time we step outside, we sure as hell better learn to kick some butt RIGHT NOW. We don't have time for that practice junk. And if the student wants to practice on his own time, in his living room, where he doesn't have a ring, and gloves, and a partner, well tough! He needs to get his butt into the gym and start banging around! All that punching air might look cool in front of the mirror, but looking cool aint what martial arts is about! It's about kicking butt and taking names, RIGHT NOW! It's about putting the fist to the flesh, and you aren't gonna get any better at that by doing something as silly as noncontact dead pattern stuff. We don't give people any way to practice footwork outside of the studio either. After all, anyone can dance, can you dance when someone is trying to punch your head? The only way to practice footwork is with a live person trying to pound your skull in. After all, if it was anything less than full contact, full intensity, than it's not realistic and it sure doesn't contribute to skill development. Oh, maybe those forms losers can do their kicks and their strikes, but not when someone is trying to take em out! It's practice with a partner, or nothing at all. And all the crap those TMA guys are doing just makes them easier to whoop up on.
-Rob
