Inverse your form

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you train form, do you ever think about at the end of your form, you start to do your inverse form?

For example, if your form starts with right hook punch, right front kick, right back fist, ... . At the end of your form, you connect with left hook punch, left front kick, left back fist, ...

Your thought?

 

[isshinryuronin]

If you train form, do you ever think about at the end of your form, you start to do your inverse form?

For example, if your form starts with right hook punch, right front kick, right back fist, ... . At the end of your form, you connect with left hook punch, left front kick, left back fist, ...

Your thought?

Any kind of rearrangement of one's form is a good idea for practice, IMO. We need to be reminded that the important thing to forms is not performing it from start to finish in a set order that is written in stone. Forms are composed of a series of sequences, each one designed to accomplish a specific tactical goal.

The only reason they are put together in 30, 40, or 60 move forms to be memorized in order is to help us remember all the individual sequences. I think it's a great idea to practice the individual series on their own, or to play with rearranging the form's order or varying the targets and angles. I think this was the original intent of forms and kata - one set template capable of many variations. This leads to tactical flexibility.

 

[Oily Dragon]

You mean like an Airbender learning Earthbending?

Yes.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If we look at this form, the part after 0.18 is identical to the part before 0.18. IMO, to repeat the information twice makes no sense. But if the duplicate part is the inverse, it may make sense because it will force the students to train both sides no matter they may like it or not.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This form uses a different approach. It inverses the form sections.

For example, the original form is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, ... The duplicated form can be 1, 2, 3, -1, -2, -3, 4, 5, 6, -4, -5, -6, ...

Which approach is better? Your thought?

 

[Oily Dragon]

I never bet on horses.

千字手 means a thousand characters, in one fist. Chin ji sao.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xingyiquan 5 elements is first taught in a specific order, generally. There is another, less seen, order I cannot remember at the moment. Generally taught in the order of Piquan, Zuanquan, Bengquan, Paoquan, Hengquan. However what should be done after learning them in that order (this is rarely done by the way) this order should be mixed up and trained in multiple orders. Also, each form should be trained with different stepping, reverse fist/leg, circularly, going backward, etc. But most of this type of training in Xingyiquan is not done these days

As for Yang Taijiquan, at least my flavor of it. We did not mix up the order of the form, but we do reverse things a bit. INstead of starting with going to the right, we go to the left and continue doing the form from the other side from beginning to end. This too is rare to see these days

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Any kind of rearrangement of one's form is a good idea for practice, IMO.

I have combined information that I like from 10 different forms into 1 form. When my friend asked me what was the purpose of that, I didn't have good reason for it. There are no new information added in. Besides for personal training, there is not much value for it.

IMO, it's very difficult to create a form that the

- 1st move can set up the 2nd move,
- 2nd move can set up the 3rd move.
- ...

 

[Oily Dragon]

Xingyiquan 5 elements is first taught in a specific order, generally. There is another, less seen, order I cannot remember at the moment. Generally taught in the order of Piquan, Zuanquan, Bengquan, Paoquan, Hengquan. However what should be done after learning them in that order (this is rarely done by the way) this order should be mixed up and trained in multiple orders. Also, each form should be trained with different stepping, reverse fist/leg, circularly, going backward, etc. But most of this type of training in Xingyiquan is not done these days

As for Yang Taijiquan, at least my flavor of it. We did not mix up the order of the form, but we do reverse things a bit. INstead of starting with going to the right, we go to the left and continue doing the form from the other side from beginning to end. This too is rare to see these days

This is the way, and a big reason why forms in kung fu are so misunderstood

I'd say off hand I must have about 500 techniques across various styles in my head and notes that I leaned from kuen sets in different styles, but nowadays I just free style, left or right, both feet. I've learned which techniques flow together and which don't, mini sets and combinations that go together naturally and a lot of that is indeed based on the energetics of the motion, which is conceptually wu xing.

Chin ji sao is so named because it resembles 千 when performed. It's done twice at the beginning of Taming the Tiger, and again at the end, in opposite directions. It contains a whopping 16 individual motions in a combination sequence containing kick checks, hand chops, pushes, overhead hand block, arm drag, double backfist, grip break, a couple tiger claw grips, neck strike, a few uppercuts, finished with fire arrow jin sao and the elbow shattering Monkey Steals Peach below.

The training instills the same ambidextrous skill, which is really important in order to get to that formless form thing that only comes when you've done a set (or a combination of them like the Hung Ga Four Pillars), and finally get to that stage when you can constantly break and recombine things. This is what Jun Fan meant by the forms being a trap for the mind and why it's important to internalize the motions, rather than rely on rote repetition. It's like ballet, the difference between practicing it and truly dancing, eventually they become the same thing, as the song goes...

Locking rhythms to the beat of her heart
Changing movement into light
She has danced into the danger zone
When the dancer becomes the dance
It can cut you like a knife, if the gift becomes the fire
On a wire between will and what will be

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but nowadays I just free style, left or right, both feet. ... formless ...

Formless mean no plan which is the opposite of move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ...

For example, the jab-cross is a plan. You use jab to bait your opponent to block it. When your opponent blocks your punch, you can then punch the new opening that he just created.

The moment that you use jab-cross, you are not formless.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Formless mean no plan which is the opposite of move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ...

For example, the jab-cross is a plan. You use jab to bait your opponent to block it. When your opponent blocks your punch, you can then punch the new opening that he just created.

The moment that you use jab-cross, you are not formless.

Boxing is relatively simple by design, so it doesn't really have to be formless. Not a lot of techniques compared to most of the nan quan, and they're all the same patterns even if each boxer has their own zazz.

Kung fu is a different animal, a sort of shapeshifter, hence all the animal and element interplay. Kung fu can become boxing in an instant, and then become wrestling the next. That's the sort of formlessness intended, adaptation by instinct. And something that practicing the same sequences over and over and over and over again in the same way will not help you learn.

What really needs to happen is the mental freedom to release yourself from physical constraints like "move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3". And people are generally terrible at that. They all want to be told exactly what to do and when, but life doesn't work like that.

Fights are chaos, you can't have a plan for chaos other than "deal with it". You'll rarely see me getting into discussions like "if you do this, I counter with that" because as you put it, there is no plan.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Fights are chaos, you can't have a plan for chaos other than "deal with it".

You are talking about someone attacks you and you respond to his attack. Usually you just attack the opening that your opponent has created for you.

I'm talking about you attack someone. If your opponent guard his body tightly, you have to open his guard before you can attack him. How to open your opponent's guard require a plan.

 

[Oily Dragon]

You are talking about someone attacks you and you respond to his attack. Usually you just attack the opening that your opponent has created for you.

I'm talking about you attack someone. If your opponent guard his body tightly, you have to open his guard before you can attack him. How to open your opponent's guard require a plan.

More like a goal than a plan. Opening a door doesn't require any more a plan than knowing how to open doors.

 

[punisher73]

More like a goal than a plan. Opening a door doesn't require any more a plan than knowing how to open doors.

The difference between techniques, tactics and strategy.

What is your overall strategy? If your strategy is that you think kicks are the best way to win a fight because the leg is stronger and longer than an arm so it keeps you at a distance and safer, how do you apply that? Then you get into tactics of keeping your distance, setting up your kicks using other techniques etc. Your techniques are the individual tools to accomplish these things.

 

[punisher73]

In my background, we are encouraged to practice forms on both sides. We don't have a lot of repetitive movements so we don't get that redundancy aspect when we do this.

Two schools of thought I have seen on this.
1) You have to be able to use it on both sides no matter which way the attacker is coming at you.
2) You train to respond with your best side all the time, so you shouldn't train the opposite side in the same manner.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The difference between techniques, tactics and strategy.

What is your overall strategy? If your strategy is that you think kicks are the best way to win a fight because the leg is stronger and longer than an arm so it keeps you at a distance and safer, how do you apply that? Then you get into tactics of keeping your distance, setting up your kicks using other techniques etc. Your techniques are the individual tools to accomplish these things.

I'm a simpleton.

 

[punisher73]

I'm a simpleton.

View attachment 27476

Tyson wasn't though. Boxing has just as many overall strategies when you understand it.

Analyze Tyson's style versus Floyd Mayweather Jr's style, big difference in how they approached an opponent even though they both had all the same techniques.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Tyson was paraphrasing von Moltke, who understood better than anybody the difference between having a plan and fighting on instinct adaptively.

In the ring, cage, or whatever, you can have a thousand plans ready to go but when none of them work, you'll find yourself naked with nothing but your training to save you. Your whole body, and whole mind, not the plan which exists only in your cerebral cortex.

The Gracies understand this too, which is why they train train train even after mapping all the strategies. No plan will save you in a fight, and if you're in your head thinking about the plan at all, you're probably going to die.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No plan will save you in a fight, and if you're in your head thinking about the plan at all, you're probably going to die.

Here is an example.

You attack your opponent with single leg. Your opponent steps back his leading leg. You end with eating dirt.

How to solve this problem?

Plan 1 - You pull your opponent first. You then borrow his resistance to get his leg.
Plan 2 - You use your leg to hook his leading leg.
Plan 3 - You attack his leading right leg, you then attack his left leg.
Plan 4 - ...

Without any plan, you will fail every single time on your single leg.

 

[punisher73]

Tyson was paraphrasing von Moltke, who understood better than anybody the difference between having a plan and fighting on instinct adaptively.

In the ring, cage, or whatever, you can have a thousand plans ready to go but when none of them work, you'll find yourself naked with nothing but your training to save you. Your whole body, and whole mind, not the plan which exists only in your cerebral cortex.

The Gracies understand this too, which is why they train train train even after mapping all the strategies. No plan will save you in a fight, and if you're in your head thinking about the plan at all, you're probably going to die.

Not sure what you think training is for then. There is no such thing as "fighting on instinct adaptively" for humans. Look at untrained people flailing around in a fight. That's what happens when you don't have a strategy and let "nature take its course".

Everything you just said stems from having a strategy. Using the Gracies as an example illustrates EXACTLY the concepts of strategy, tactics and techniques. In fact, it can almost be summarized as this.
1) Manage the "free movement phase" of the fight, or control the distance
2) Establish the clinch
3) Takedown
4) Establish positional dominance/control
5) End the fight

Each of those 5 stages has a multitude of tactics to employ to be successful.

The purpose of training is so that you can flow from tactic to tactic (switching techniques as needed as well). I agree that you have to keep training until it happens on a subconscious level and don't have to think about what's next. But, that is NOT the same thing as not having a plan.

I don't think you understand "strategy" really is. You made the comment about having a "thousand plans in place". That's not how strategy works. Look at ANY sport and they come up with a strategy to beat the other team/person based on their weaknesses and holes in their approach. But, it is adaptive and flexible based on the immediate needs.