Do you as an instructor on a regular bases or as a fun thing to do ever have your students take a empty hand form and make them take their favorite weapon or one of your choice and interpret the form with the weapon?
Interpretation of empty hand forms to weapons
- Thread starter tshadowchaser
- Start date
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, It has always being understood....empty hands techniques can be apply to most weapons.
Same for weapons forms or techniques can be apply to empty hands....
Both use almost the same principles. Weapons is only an extension of our hands or arms....as the saying goes.
HANDS and Feet? ....are they weapons too!
Aloha,
PS: The mouth has been known to be a dirty weapon at times.......words sometimes do hurt more....? ......."have a nice day"
Same for weapons forms or techniques can be apply to empty hands....
Both use almost the same principles. Weapons is only an extension of our hands or arms....as the saying goes.
HANDS and Feet? ....are they weapons too!
Aloha,
PS: The mouth has been known to be a dirty weapon at times.......words sometimes do hurt more....? ......."have a nice day"
My current style doesn't have forms but when I studied kempo our instructor made that compulsory as part of the green or brown 1 test...can't remember which one. I had a blast with it. He also had us create our own kata from scratch and explain why we did it the way that we did it...where were the attackers, how were they attacking and so on. It was fun but quite a challenge as well.
tellner
Senior Master
Weapons are not "extensions of the hand". They are extensions of the will. There's a subtle but important difference there.
There are also serious technical differences. Weapons have their own ranges and capabilities. In many empty hand forms the emphasis is on generating power so that you can hurt someone with human hands and feet which are remarkably poor weapons. A knife can kill or disable with almost no power. A maul or axe requires both hands. The footwork of the sword is radically different than the footwork of kickboxing, and the action by which it causes damage is very different than the body's natural weapons. We don't slice or cut just for instance.
Many of the tools and motions one uses with purely empty-hand forms are suicidal when weapons are present.
Consider kata that rely on kicking. Other than Krabi Krabong, maculele and a handful of other systems which are explicitly weapons-based and build their fighting around armed conflict translating your kicking forms to weapons is a quick and messy form of dying. Forget the romantic lies about Karate and Tae Kwon Do. They were designed for use against a single unarmed opponent, not for fighting bare-handed against armored soldiers or kicking a mounted lancer off his horse.
The classic outwards, downwards, inwards, upwards and - Cthulhu devour us - X blocks are inappropriate at best. There are up, down, in, double and out blocks with weapons, but the hand, arm and body are not used the same way.
That said, there are martial arts where weapons are implicitly or explicitly part of the empty-hand portion of the program. Kalaripayittu, Silat, FMA, and from the little exposure I've had Japanese koryu are built it. Most of the Silat juru juru I've learned are supposed to translate directly to a knife, big knife or some other weapon. The little bit of Krabi Krabong I did use the same motions and lines empty hand and with weapons from mai-sok to halberds.
With all that negativity, there is some virtue in the exercise. If you have some idea about how to use a weapon it's useful to relate it to what you already know. And it's good to take the things you've been working on and experiment with the ways they can be modified for different circumstances. I'd still urge people to learn a weapon for real rather than just going through their empty hand forms with it and assuming they've solved the problem.
There are also serious technical differences. Weapons have their own ranges and capabilities. In many empty hand forms the emphasis is on generating power so that you can hurt someone with human hands and feet which are remarkably poor weapons. A knife can kill or disable with almost no power. A maul or axe requires both hands. The footwork of the sword is radically different than the footwork of kickboxing, and the action by which it causes damage is very different than the body's natural weapons. We don't slice or cut just for instance.
Many of the tools and motions one uses with purely empty-hand forms are suicidal when weapons are present.
Consider kata that rely on kicking. Other than Krabi Krabong, maculele and a handful of other systems which are explicitly weapons-based and build their fighting around armed conflict translating your kicking forms to weapons is a quick and messy form of dying. Forget the romantic lies about Karate and Tae Kwon Do. They were designed for use against a single unarmed opponent, not for fighting bare-handed against armored soldiers or kicking a mounted lancer off his horse.
The classic outwards, downwards, inwards, upwards and - Cthulhu devour us - X blocks are inappropriate at best. There are up, down, in, double and out blocks with weapons, but the hand, arm and body are not used the same way.
That said, there are martial arts where weapons are implicitly or explicitly part of the empty-hand portion of the program. Kalaripayittu, Silat, FMA, and from the little exposure I've had Japanese koryu are built it. Most of the Silat juru juru I've learned are supposed to translate directly to a knife, big knife or some other weapon. The little bit of Krabi Krabong I did use the same motions and lines empty hand and with weapons from mai-sok to halberds.
With all that negativity, there is some virtue in the exercise. If you have some idea about how to use a weapon it's useful to relate it to what you already know. And it's good to take the things you've been working on and experiment with the ways they can be modified for different circumstances. I'd still urge people to learn a weapon for real rather than just going through their empty hand forms with it and assuming they've solved the problem.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
I often do this for fun, and for students. I'll also assign them a weapon I know they're not good with, or some random object they need to use as an improvised weapon.
With any new weapon, you need to consider two factors: how is using this weapon like what I already know, and how is using this weapon unlike what I already know.
Armed kata is a valuable drill.
With any new weapon, you need to consider two factors: how is using this weapon like what I already know, and how is using this weapon unlike what I already know.
Armed kata is a valuable drill.
I adjust my students forms to tell them this will help you better or put one in a more optimum position if it was a weapon, and not be a degradation of postition is it is empty hand.
I also then have them look into blade versus stick optimizations, and how footwork and or body positions as well as range would change.
Is it required? Nope. Do I force them? Nope. Do I show them to let them see more and understand more and even ask me more questions? Yes.
I differ slightly -- but that's because, in my style of Bando, our principles say that weapons flow from empty hand and empty hand flows from weapon hand. While there are some modifications that have to be made (weapons tend to require more solid stances then empty hand, and the safety rules of the weapon may force an adaptation of a movement), you should be able to do any weapon hand form empty handed, or empty hand form with a weapon. It should be recognizable, not necessarily identical.
In many styles, weapon principles are completely separate from unarmed principles. (I've seen places that try to graft Chinese weapons into Okinawan karate...) In others, while the principles are shared, the forms are NOT interchangeable without major adaptation.
Because my style's principles say that the empty hand and weapon hand are interrelated, I focus my training on empty hand. I know I can pick up a stick, and use it effectively. I know I can use a knife effectively, because I know I can use my hands effectively. Now, that's not to say there aren't specific techniques and tactics tailored to each weapon... but that they build on the same body dynamics. The same body dynamics that throw a straight punch become a strike with sticks of various lengths, or a thrust with a dagger or kukri or dao.
With all that said -- I agree that you can't "just" add a knife to a form or kata. You have to know the safety rules for the weapon, and apply them properly. For example, one common principle of knife safety says that you shouldn't be in the path of your blade; when you put a knife in your hand, you have to look at the path that blade will cover, and may need to make some changes to stay safe while you're doing it.
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
Cuong Nhu guys do that kind of stuff. We do teach weapons and weapon forms (mostly Tambo and Bo staff). But, we also have you do your disarmed forms with weapons, to see how well you know your weapon and forms. We also will do non-weapon drills with weapons (like applying the concept beyond the Wing Chun Dan Chi Sao drill), punching combos, kicking drills, and rolling, all with weapons.
Now, are you going to do some of our kicking drills with a Bo staff in your hand, no. But, it serves a vital function. It gets you more used to the length and reach of your weapon. And how to shift your body if you decide to throw a disarmed strike.
Now, are you going to do some of our kicking drills with a Bo staff in your hand, no. But, it serves a vital function. It gets you more used to the length and reach of your weapon. And how to shift your body if you decide to throw a disarmed strike.
tellner
Senior Master
That's just it. Your martial art was designed with weapons use in mind. The empty hand portion was made so that it would translate easily into the armed portion.
In Choy Li Fut, what is done empty handed can & is done with a weapon or vice versa. The techniques do not change nor the energies used or theories. Not unlike FMA, but not the same. Weapons are taught gradually & slowly along with the hands... AFTER THE BASICS ARE LEARNED.
I've seen tooooooooooooooooooo many schools take a weapon that they have no basic training to understand the weapon & simple start swinging away like the player is a prop plane on the taxiway or having batting practice with & assume that's proper usage. That's wrong, dangerous & most of the time, damn funny.
In CMA, there's a saying...
For example... if I use a stick (bo) & perform dam kiu with it & then the same technique empty handed, you'll see the same thing, used the same way & with the same intent & executed. What you won't see is a non-weapon using style like TKD (not knocking, just illustrating) doing a "down block " with the stick & then doing it with the hand. Unless the player has training off to the side in a bonafide stick using style, you're going to see a TKD player trying to fit a stick where it doesn't belong because the mechanics aren't there. The background for the transition from empty hand to non-empty isn't there.
If the training style of choice has weapons that match, bully. If it doesn't, don't match it. It would've already been done before you got there. If you want weapon training, bully. Go get it properly not just ad-hoc'd. That's my outlook anyway
I've seen tooooooooooooooooooo many schools take a weapon that they have no basic training to understand the weapon & simple start swinging away like the player is a prop plane on the taxiway or having batting practice with & assume that's proper usage. That's wrong, dangerous & most of the time, damn funny.
In CMA, there's a saying...
- 100 days for the cudgel (bo, stick, etc...)
- 1,000 days for the knife (broadsword)
- 1,000 days for the spear
- 10,000 days for the sword
For example... if I use a stick (bo) & perform dam kiu with it & then the same technique empty handed, you'll see the same thing, used the same way & with the same intent & executed. What you won't see is a non-weapon using style like TKD (not knocking, just illustrating) doing a "down block " with the stick & then doing it with the hand. Unless the player has training off to the side in a bonafide stick using style, you're going to see a TKD player trying to fit a stick where it doesn't belong because the mechanics aren't there. The background for the transition from empty hand to non-empty isn't there.
If the training style of choice has weapons that match, bully. If it doesn't, don't match it. It would've already been done before you got there. If you want weapon training, bully. Go get it properly not just ad-hoc'd. That's my outlook anyway
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, This reminds me of someone throwing a baseball, (could be a rock,) or anything around them to hold and throw.....could this also be a empty hand technique converted to a hammer blow...?
"Yes" some weapons will have their own forms....common sense here...and empty hands may the not work the same way...
Can empty hand forms be converted to weapons form? ....off course....and again it depends...
For those with two hands? ...one right and one left ...this is good.
For those with two right hands and no left? ....NOT sure here? Your interpetations could differ? ....
Kicks? ...in empty hand forms, are just kicks....can kicks have "weapons" ....YES! ...they can shovel anything on the ground and kick it to you...(sand, rocks, boom stick,dirt,flyng darts, and maybe even something that smells? .....)
The thing here is, can empty hands be interpeted to weapons? ....Yes and ..maybe NO...depends ....on the movements each can have there own...way of striking....
Aloha ( yes...no...yes...no...yes..no.....OR I DUNNO?)
ps: "INOKEA " ( i don't care ) pigeon english...hawaiian slang..."INOKEA"
"Yes" some weapons will have their own forms....common sense here...and empty hands may the not work the same way...
Can empty hand forms be converted to weapons form? ....off course....and again it depends...
For those with two hands? ...one right and one left ...this is good.
For those with two right hands and no left? ....NOT sure here? Your interpetations could differ? ....
Kicks? ...in empty hand forms, are just kicks....can kicks have "weapons" ....YES! ...they can shovel anything on the ground and kick it to you...(sand, rocks, boom stick,dirt,flyng darts, and maybe even something that smells? .....)
The thing here is, can empty hands be interpeted to weapons? ....Yes and ..maybe NO...depends ....on the movements each can have there own...way of striking....
Aloha ( yes...no...yes...no...yes..no.....OR I DUNNO?)
ps: "INOKEA " ( i don't care ) pigeon english...hawaiian slang..."INOKEA"
