Internal Wing Chun and External Wing Chun

[Oily Dragon]

Likewise, stating that Taijiquan came from Wing Chun or Wing Chun came from Taijiquan is wrong.

I think these need to be split out.

TCC definitely does not come from Wing Chun, but Wing Chun definitely uses Tai Chi concepts, and WC got those from its parent art forms that were heavily influenced by TCC.

The big difference is, Wing Chun today is mainly a striking art (probably unlike proto WC), whereas TCC maintains that more bodyweight/grapple mentality, but in a snake motif.

Another thing Wing Chun and TCC share is the focus on adduction, a very important part of all the "internal" training.

 

[Teapot]

I think these need to be split out.

TCC definitely does not come from Wing Chun, but Wing Chun definitely uses Tai Chi concepts.

This is why I initially asked if they meant "Taiji" in terms of the concept of Yin/Yang - since that's quite common. If Wing Chun uses the concept of Yin/Yang interplay, that is far more believable.

Going back to Internal and External:

I think words like Internal and External may have influenced Taijiquan for the worse.

For example, when people call Taijiquan "Internal", many people think that it's "less External" than "External" martial arts.

A lot of performative Taijiquan are very wishy-washy, flowy, flowery, and blurry. Many will claim to have structure, but don’t have any details or prescriptions on what defines a good structure in the art.

From speaking to some of them online, I have learned that many of them believe that the physical shape/angles of your body aren’t important to having a good structure. They believe that angles and shapes do not matter, and their justification is that it’s all “Internal” and you’re not supposed to see it.

As a practitioner of Taijiquan, I disagree with this. Just like Wing Chun, I also care about centerline albeit it might be in a different context and usage; that term is used in my lineage. And in lots of Taijiquan videos and from playing Push Hands with outsiders, they don’t care about centerline at all. They’re incredibly vulnerable.

There’s a practitioner who has told me that Taijiquan does not follow Newtonian Physics because it’s “Internal”.

It’s quite ironic to name a martial art after Taiji because one would think that they would advocate for both Internal (Yin) and External (Yang) among other things.

One could say that every martial art is both Internal and External; it's just a matter of ratio. There's no martial art that's absolutely just one and not the other.

 

[dream]

I don’t know. My experience with neigong and chi Gung has shown me internal arts are something of their own, which defy all laws of quantum and Newtonian physics. I really mean the projection of chi at this point. It isn’t common but it is practiced and possible. To me, that makes all the difference and what brought me to the wutang school.

 

[Teapot]

I don’t know. My experience with neigong and chi Gung has shown me internal arts are something of their own, which defy all laws of quantum and Newtonian physics. I really mean the projection of chi at this point. It isn’t common but it is practiced and possible. To me, that makes all the difference and what brought me to the wutang school.

When I spoke of physics, I'm not referring to Qi Gong here. Taijiquan does have a Qi Gong aspect, but in my view, that aspect is a layer on top of the physical method. When it comes to physics, I am referring to the physical method.

A lot of the details in the physical method have disappeared in many lines of Taijiquan.

I'm not referring to Qi Gong here. I'm referring to the physical method.

For example, in tuishou, that is a physical practice. Here are some screenshots from a video. Repeatedly, the person in the red jacket would cross over his center with his right hand. When that happens, his arm is structurally weak and easily collapsed.

People in the comment section might say that the teacher is very skilled for pushing someone far away.

But it's not impressive to me because the student is handing over a big weakness on a silver platter to his teacher. The teacher didn't create that situation himself; the student is simply clueless on how to orient his hand relative to his own torso.

So this is an example of one simple detail. The key reason why the teacher was able to push his student away is not because of a highly refined level of Qi expulsion. It's because his training partner's structure is very easily collapsible, and I guess no one bothered to correct him. He is just giving the same weakness over and over again.

I also asked them if the student was doing this on purpose because I considered whether allowing your opponent to take you was part of the exercise. I was told that it wasn't on purpose.

This doesn't get fixed with Qi Gong. This gets fixed by learning where to place one body part relative to yourself and to your opponent.

 

[dream]

Yes; you’re right. Without a proper foundation, chi Gung makes little difference

 

[Oily Dragon]

This is why I initially asked if they meant "Taiji" in terms of the concept of Yin/Yang - since that's quite common. If Wing Chun uses the concept of Yin/Yang interplay, that is far more believable.

Well practically everything in CMA uses yin/yang.

There are a lot of specific TCC techniques that can also be found in Wing Chun, like 美人照鏡.

Going back to Internal and External:

I think words like Internal and External may have influenced Taijiquan for the worse.

For example, when people call Taijiquan "Internal", many people think that it's "less External" than "External" martial arts.

Part of the issue here is "words".

There was a long time where this false duality was not applicable to kung fu, "this is internal, that is external".

The reality is that before the Wei Jia and Nei Jia duality was even recorded, things were more Tai Chi than they are now.

A lot of performative Taijiquan are very wishy-washy, flowy, flowery, and blurry. Many will claim to have structure, but don’t have any details or prescriptions on what defines a good structure in the art.

From speaking to some of them online, I have learned that many of them believe that the physical shape/angles of your body aren’t important to having a good structure. They believe that angles and shapes do not matter, and their justification is that it’s all “Internal” and you’re not supposed to see it.

As a practitioner of Taijiquan, I disagree with this. Just like Wing Chun, I also care about centerline albeit it might be in a different context and usage; that term is used in my lineage. And in lots of Taijiquan videos and from playing Push Hands with outsiders, they don’t care about centerline at all. They’re incredibly vulnerable.

That's good.

Sauce for the goose, for you.

There’s a practitioner who has told me that Taijiquan does not follow Newtonian Physics because it’s “Internal”.

Circles and spheres? I think they are pretty internal. Not a physics guy, tho.

It’s quite ironic to name a martial art after Taiji because one would think that they would advocate for both Internal (Yin) and External (Yang) among other things.

One could say that every martial art is both Internal and External; it's just a matter of ratio. There's no martial art that's absolutely just one and not the other.

Pretty much.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I don’t know. My experience with neigong and chi Gung has shown me internal arts are something of their own, which defy all laws of quantum and Newtonian physics. I really mean the projection of chi at this point. It isn’t common but it is practiced and possible. To me, that makes all the difference and what brought me to the wutang school.

This is a philosophical question but what part of your brain isn't subject to quantum and Newtonian laws?

In my world, my brain is subject to them, but can't be explained by them. Understand?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Yes; you’re right. Without a proper foundation, chi Gung makes little difference

There's also an old kung fu saying that without qi gong, kung fu is useless.

 

[Teapot]

Circles and spheres? I think they are pretty internal. Not a physics guy, tho.

Circles and spheres are taught in basic introductory physics courses.

Often, you will hear terms such as Torque, Angular Acceleration and Angular Velocity.

Physics is simply the study of matter and energy. Given that our universe includes spherical objects orbiting around other spherical objects, it would be jaw-dropping if circles and spheres were not commonly studied in physics - especially in a field like astronomy.

If I wind up or compress a spring, "potential energy" gets built up. I could argue that is one example of "internal". Potential energy can be converted into kinetic energy.

A normal person may pull back their arm as a wind up to throw a punch. That wind-up is very visible and obvious.

In the Chen Taijiquan that I'm familiar with, a lot of "wind-up" happens in the torso - a lot of twisting and winding of the ribs/back against a solid, stationary anchor. Because the wind-up happens in the body, it's not so obvious, but in physics terms, it's ultimately just potential energy.

And to be clear, I am not saying that potential energy is "Qi". I am not saying that Taijiquan doesn't have its spiritual side. I'm not saying that Taijiquan should be taught using physics jargon.

What I am saying is that the physical method of Taijiquan follows the laws of physics like everything else.

There's a story I've read regarding Chen Zhaokui who's the son of Chen Fa'ke who is pretty much the main guy who publicized Chen Taijiquan. Here's the story:

CZK always took a negative view of the supernatural and mysterious. When he was teaching boxing in Shanghai, a karate expert came to his door to learn boxing, and insisted on mastering the mystery. In order to knock some sense to the man, teacher CZK told him to come out in a class demonstration to take on a “fu kao” (leaning strike) in Ji Di Qui. Despite being told to ready himself for a “kao” strike, the karate expert was struck senseless and rolled. Afterwards, to save face the humiliated expert invited teacher to a meal accompanied by some of the disciples. He said to teacher CZK on the table: “When you practice boxing, I can see you surrounded by a foot thick of “qi”! CZK could not accept his flattery. It baffled him how the karate expert who was also an associate professor in the university could possess no scientific attitude! This is a karate gongfu expert who can scale walls to strike opponents, and yet when he could not withstand a “kao” blow, he had to put it down to mystery and would not face up the fact that there is a distinction between true and false gongfu.

Interestingly enough, there is a similar story in this same lineage where someone said that they could see a wall of "Qi" when the teacher practiced. That teacher was just left speechless. He's just like... "Uh... thanks?"

 

[dream]

This is a philosophical question but what part of your brain isn't subject to quantum and Newtonian laws?

In my world, my brain is subject to them, but can't be explained by them. Understand?

I do. Can’t be removed from the tool of perception.

The question then remains, what if you remove the lens of perception from your brain? Higher states of consciousness in which miracles occur may follow subatomic laws of some kind but when you can do chi kung like that , who cares about physics , right?