Internal Wing Chun and External Wing Chun

[dream]

That’s fine. I would like it myself. Anecdotes aren’t enough , but I still feel and see some tai chi in wing Chun. Perhaps it’s my unique experience but based on what I was told by the wing Chun guy regarding tai chi influence I wouldn’t doubt there was truth to it.

I’m not sure who you meant but tai chi was Tuesday, hsing i Thursday, and BaGua saturday , and unlike many tai chi studios, we were a wutang boxing school, so we actually learned the fighting applications of tai chi Chuan, meaning I’m a boxer trained by a boxer. I don’t think yip man did seminars, I don’t do seminars, (I do hours and hours of training with a sifu, in/out of class, etc)…so yes, we agree, people who aren’t wutang students really couldn’t speak on it with knowledge, and vice versa, a wing chun guy wouldn’t know about wutang.

I commented because of the higher states of consciousness internal /Wu tang schools catapult you into , versus the slower paced later advanced chi work seen in shaolin /external . It’s just opinion and not important to the art . They end up all being the same really in the end, same goal, different paths, and mastery usually means difference on the same parity

- edit: sorry it was cut off by my mistake

 

[Teapot]

Perhaps it’s being sun lutang lineage that I phrased it that way. It was not my intent to confuse or mislead historically. Factually speaking I was told and read that taichichaun was fused with the shaolin wing chun, making it truly a Chan art. I was led to understand the practice of push hands was one example of tai chi influence on wing Chun .

Furthermore, I meant the latter in context in that wing chuns nei gong is only revealed at the “closed disciple” level, meaning when a sifu is passing lineage seriously , not like when dudes who “master” the art designate themselves sifus, not to sound judgmental but as a Wutang guy you know what I’m talking about with misrepresenting I’m sure? But I also meant the former, wing Chun clearly has chin na derived from tai chi besides the evolution of the push hands technique. That is why also I was told it uses the yin Yang as a symbol from the supreme ultimate fist.

again I can be wrong, but I doubt it when felt and seen in practice. That is why I consider it the 4th internal art because there is some connection, and in my may yat encounter I was told our sigung (y ip man) did study tai chi which had influence too, but that is something I really have no idea if that is true, and I am not in contact with them to ask.

so please consider me reply has both “factual information“ as well as my belief that the info is true from my applications of said practice , so i mean no offense to any lineage or any school or style. In fact it’s a compliment that they took the best of shaolin and still said, “hey those wutang guys also know some stuff we can learn to make a better gung fu” or so was the goal, and that is what we strive for , at least I do

i hope you take my 2 cents with grain of salt as saying goes

Could it be that you are confusing two different kinds of Shaolin?

There's the Shaolin located in Henan province which is like 35 miles away from the Chen Village.

But, then there is the so-called "Southern Shaolin Monastery".

So there might be myths/legends of Wing Chun being associated with a so-called "Southern Shaolin Monastery".

So while Chen Family Taijiquan has ties to the conventional and more verified form of Shaolin with a confirmed location, a lot of Southern Chinese martial arts such as Wing Chun tend to have legends that are tied to a "Southern Shaolin Monastery".

Also, Taijiquan has plenty of Tuishou methods such as Da Lu which is completely different than Wing Chun's Chi Sao. Different patterns, different paradigms, and different contexts.

 

[dream]

It could be possible I am confusing the areas as pointed out previously. I mean no offense to anyone.

Thank you for educating me on that

 

[Xue Sheng]

I saw Taijiquan influences in Police/Miltary Sanda..... but there is really no connection beyond they are both from China.

I saw these similarities because I trained Taijiquan for so long. I also see a lot of links between Xingyiquan and Jeet Kune Do, and even JKD and Sun Taijiquan. That does not mean Bruce Lee Trained Taijiquan or Xingyiquan. I means I have a whole lot of experience in Taijiquan and Xingyiquan and we as humans tend to look for similarities.

That’s fine. I would like it myself. Anecdotes aren’t enough , but I still feel and see some tai chi in wing Chun. Perhaps it’s my unique experience but based on what I was told by the wing Chun guy regarding tai chi influence I wouldn’t doubt there was truth to it.

I’m not sure who you meant but tai chi was Tuesday, hsing i Thursday, and BaGua saturday , and unlike many tai chi studios, we were a wutang boxing school, so we actually learned the fighting applications of tai chi Chuan, meaning I’m a boxer trained by a boxer. I don’t think yip man did seminars, I don’t do seminars, (I do hours and hours of training with a sifu, in/out of class, etc)…so yes, we agree, people who aren’t wutang students really couldn’t speak on it with knowledge, and vice versa, a wing chun guy wouldn’t know about wutang.

I commented because of the higher states of consciousness internal /Wu tang schools catapult you into , versus the slower paced later advanced chi work seen in shaolin /external . It’s just opinion and not important to the art . They end up all being the same really in the end, same goal, different paths, and mastery usually means difference on the same parity

- edit: sorry it was cut off by my mistake

Who is that in response to?

 

[Teapot]

But I also meant the former, wing Chun clearly has chin na derived from tai chi besides the evolution of the push hands technique. That is why also I was told it uses the yin Yang as a symbol from the supreme ultimate fist.

You don't need to be worried about offending me.

Regarding Qinna, I'll pick a basic one as an example and show it's actually quite common across martial arts in general:
Bagazuzhang:

Aikido calls this Nikyo:

Taijiquan:

White Crane - which is speculated to have influenced Wing Chun:

Despite all this, these martial arts are not historically connected in a meaningful way, and Aikido is not even a Chinese martial art. A lot of Japanese arts will have this particular Qinna.

Despite all that, this Qinna can show up in Taijiquan's Push Hand patterning even though many other styles doesn't have Taijiquan's Push Hands.

From my perspective, I would never grab someone like in the White Crane image above specifically because it's vulnerable to this particular kind of Qinna. And that's actually what White Crane folks would do. They can qinna someone from that position - which is why I wouldn't be in that position in the first place. If someone tried to grab me like that, this qinna is the very first thing I would attempt on them.

Although this is just one of many Qinna methods, it's a proof-of-concept to show that just because you discovered some Qinna to be common between two styles doesn't mean the styles are related. And there's a very high probability that lots of styles will have that Qinna you are thinking about.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You don't need to be worried about offending me.

Regarding Qinna, I'll pick a basic one as an example and show it's actually quite common across martial arts in general:
Bagazuzhang:
View attachment 30354

Aikido calls this Nikyo:
View attachment 30355

Taijiquan:
View attachment 30356

White Crane - which is speculated to have influenced Wing Chun:
View attachment 30357

Despite all this, these martial arts are not historically connected in a meaningful way, and Aikido is not even a Chinese martial art. A lot of Japanese arts will have this particular Qinna.

Despite all that, this Qinna can show up in Taijiquan's Push Hand patterning even though many other styles doesn't have Taijiquan's Push Hands.

From my perspective, I would never grab someone like in the White Crane image above specifically because it's vulnerable to this particular kind of Qinna. And that's actually what White Crane folks would do. They can qinna someone from that position - which is why I wouldn't be in that position in the first place. If someone tried to grab me like that, this qinna is the very first thing I would attempt on them.

Although this is just one of many Qinna methods, it's a proof-of-concept to show that just because you discovered some Qinna to be common between two styles doesn't mean the styles are related. And there's a very high probability that lots of styles will have that Qinna you are thinking about.

Agreed

Just because virtually every fighting method has a straight punch, does not mean they are related

 

[O'Malley]

My opinion is that internal and external are false categories that have more to do with a taking a pot shot at the Qing dynasty that was made by the guy that wrote the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan in 1669 than anything else and I really would not worry about it. And this is coming from a guy who has done taijiquan for over 20 years, as well as xingyiquan and a bit of baguazhang and as well as some changquan and wing chun.

Other than that there is an old CMA saying Internal goes to external and external goes to internal. Basically train them right and you end up in the same place

So I guess I am of the opinion that you are better off training Wing Chun and not worrying about Internal vs External

Well, the body usage and unusual strength usually associated with internal arts can be used for techniques and tactics associated with external arts. That said, IME, developing these attributes requires specific training methods which are different from common physical/athletic/technical training.

In other words, you can perfectly put the beer in a wine bottle, but you still need to brew it right and you won't do that with grapes.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Shaolin and Tai Chi Chuan have a long history together, this can be substantiated via historical record (Shahar etc). They are not mutually exclusive, in fact Shaolin Si was and still is a major epicenter of Daoist philosophy and kung fu. As was pointed out, Tai Chi Chuan literally grew up in the same neighborhood down the road.

Shaolinquan itself is a mashup of Buddhist and Daoist practices going back a thousand years, with constant change.

Wing Chun and the other "southern Shaolin' traditions are just younger, because they represent these practices hundreds of years downstream, as they traveled south to the sea, and even to other countries.

 

[Oily Dragon]

HIstorically speaking, I don't think there are any connections between these martial arts.

There is, according to historians all of these arts intermingled at one point or another. Put another way none of them formed in a vacuum.

Even Dr. Yang suggested a link between Xing Yi and Shaolin animal styles.

As far as other Nei Jia, Shaolin' has always incorporated those and all others. This is part of why so many arts like Wing Chun are considered Shaolin. They honor the Shaolin legacy, and at the same time Shaolin honors them.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, the body usage and unusual strength usually associated with internal arts can be used for techniques and tactics associated with external arts. That said, IME, developing these attributes requires specific training methods which are different from common physical/athletic/technical training.

In other words, you can perfectly put the beer in a wine bottle, but you still need to brew it right and you won't do that with grapes.

IME, I do not fully agree.... still going with, if trained properly...over a period of years.... they end up in the same place.

Old Chinese saying. internal goes to external and external goes to internal.

 

[Teapot]

There is, according to historians all of these arts intermingled at one point or another. Put another way none of them formed in a vacuum.

Even Dr. Yang suggested a link between Xing Yi and Shaolin animal styles.

As far as other Nei Jia, Shaolin' has always incorporated those and all others. This is part of why so many arts like Wing Chun are considered Shaolin. They honor the Shaolin legacy, and at the same time Shaolin honors them.

I'm aware of the intermingling, but that also depends on how we define it.

If we define a martial art under a label based on when it was founded by someone, then by this definition, anything that predates that founder no longer falls under that label.

For example, both Aikido and Hapkido share the same predecessor art known as Daito-Ryu Aiki-jujutsu.

For the sake of argument, let's assume Aikido and Hapkido never directly intermingled - which might be the case. Stating that Aikido came from Hapkido or that Hapkido came from Aikido is therefore wrong.

Likewise, stating that Taijiquan came from Wing Chun or Wing Chun came from Taijiquan is wrong.

Because... the argument you're bringing up is not related to these two labels. You're referring to something that predates their times. So at best, someone can say that they share the same ancestor art at some point in time or their ancestral arts intermingled. But that is far less direct than what was originally pointed out.

 

[dream]

FWIW, I only said I was told by a wing chun guy that tai chi was one of the gungfu put into the mix: not that wing Chun main predecessor is wutang. In my opinion, wing chun is definitely a shaolin Gung fu that was influenced by tai chi chuan alongside XX other styles of shaolin, so comparatively the amount is probably small

Thank you for all the information, while I regret my poorly worded introduction to the topic myself I am glad the discussion had shown more info

 

[Oily Dragon]

I'm aware of the intermingling, but that also depends on how we define it.

If we define a martial art under a label based on when it was founded by someone, then by this definition, anything that predates that founder no longer falls under that label.

For example, both Aikido and Hapkido share the same predecessor art known as Daito-Ryu Aiki-jujutsu.

For the sake of argument, let's assume Aikido and Hapkido never directly intermingled - which might be the case. Stating that Aikido came from Hapkido or that Hapkido came from Aikido is therefore wrong.

Likewise, stating that Taijiquan came from Wing Chun or Wing Chun came from Taijiquan is wrong.

Because... the argument you're bringing up is not related to these two labels. You're referring to something that predates their times. So at best, someone can say that they share the same ancestor art at some point in time or their ancestral arts intermingled. But that is far less direct than what was originally pointed out.

CMA are like the blues.

The blues originated in the Mississippi delta, but eventually made their way to every corner.of the world.

The best way to visualize it is there were a few big mixing pots at play amongst all the eosteric branches.

Shaolin mixed early Indian Buddhism, Chinese Daoism, created Chan, which then spread all over China and beyond, all while other arts were flourishing. Without Shaolin there would be no Japanese Zen or Korean Seong. How that would have changed things!!

As far as Wing Chun, it truly owes its origins to a myriad of different things. Shaolin animal exercises, weapons, but also the whole anti-Ching revolutionary history. Practically, legacy wise (and based on the fist sets) it's southern snake, crane, and dragon, and thus water, wood, and earth aspects of the Wu Xing. Qi, ying, shen. Energy, shape, spirit.

 

[geezer]

Thank you for all the information, while I regret my poorly worded introduction to the topic myself I am glad the discussion had shown more info

BTW Dream, welcome and great to have you posting. Don't worry about people politely disagreeing here. It's what we do. And we exchange information, and we learn. When it comes to taijiquan, Xue is a great resource. He's trained several styles from very reputable instructors since like forever.

Wing Chun is my thing. Well, one of them anyway. I switched to it back in '79 after a short time in another Chinese style. Unfortunately, after all this time, there's an awful lot I don't know. On the other hand, we have others here who contribute great info.

Anyway, just because Wing Chun has soft and even internal branches today doesn't mean it was directly connected with the classical internal arts. Nor that that's the source of chi sau. Many fighting arts, internal and external have somewhat similar training methods. Just sayin'.

 

[dream]

BTW Dream, welcome and great to have you posting. Don't worry about people politely disagreeing here. It's what we do. And we exchange information, and we learn. When it comes to taijiquan, Xue is a great resource. He's trained several styles from very reputable instructors since like forever.

Wing Chun is my thing. Well, one of them anyway. I switched to it back in '79 after a short time in another Chinese style. Unfortunately, after all this time, there's an awful lot I don't know. On the other hand, we have others here who contribute great info.

Anyway, just because Wing Chun has soft and even internal branches today doesn't mean it was directly connected with the classical internal arts. Nor that that's the source of chi sau. Many fighting arts, internal and external have somewhat similar training methods. Just sayin'.

Thank you! Absolutely I understand my friend , thank you for the kind words.

I’m actually embarrassed because my schools (neither wutang nor wing chun) did not get into history of the arts. All we did was “silent transmission” so discussion were usually conjecture from senior classmates to junior.

Therefore I am happy to learn the historical facts around both wutang and shaolin, especially wing chun as that is now my main practice and Taoist arts/sun lutang is well known.

I haven’t finished weapons forms yet but I absolutely have fallen in love with wing chun gungfu. I never thought anything would come close to my love for bagua or hsing i, but wing chun seduced me lol

 

[Mider]

In my understanding, it should be both

internal, external. One should have a strong body but also good structure. I’ve heard some guys can hone their internal energy as well.

 

[dream]

In my understanding, it should be both

internal, external. One should have a strong body but also good structure. I’ve heard some guys can hone their internal energy as well.

I agree. Wing chun starts “external” but ends “internal” .

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I’m actually embarrassed because my schools (neither wutang nor wing chun) did not get into history of the arts. All we did was “silent transmission” so discussion were usually conjecture from senior classmates to junior.

In fairness, even in martial arts schools which teach the history of their arts, the history is usually pretty questionable. If the teacher is honest, then they can usually at least tell you something reasonably accurate about the previous generation. Beyond that ... let's just say that most martial arts instructors are not historians and oral tradition can be pretty unreliable. At best, you usually get a fair amount of spin. At worst, you get a mishmash of semi-plausible theories and utter nonsense.

To be clear, the accuracy of the purported history (or lack thereof) does not necessarily correlate to the quality of the martial practice.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I’m actually embarrassed because my schools (neither wutang nor wing chun) did not get into history of the arts.

In my own experience this is a good thing.

I don't think this is limited to Chinese marts either. You should hear how the Brazilian, Korean, and Japanese schools make it out like they invented combat.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Ayway, just because Wing Chun has soft and even internal branches today doesn't mean it was directly connected with the classical internal arts. Nor that that's the source of chi sau. Many fighting arts, internal and external have somewhat similar training methods. Just sayin'.

Wing Chun developed in a time when the Daoist concept of Qi and it's connection to the Snake/Water aspects of the Wu Xing were popularized, which is why TCC maintains its connection with the element of water and snake hands.

In the southern traditions, the Nei gong "immortal" animals are Snake, Crane, and Dragon. This is another nod to the 8 Daoist Immortals and other legends.

By the time of Sun Lutang, he and other scholars were trying to figure out what the hell kung fu was, so they started discriminating.

Which, if you know anything about Daoism, is not the True Dao, but the myriad of things.