"Internal" martial art or external martial art, which training can help you to live longer?

[Kung Fu Wang]

3 "internal" MA masters:

1. Li Jingglin (1885-1931) 46 - Taiji
2. Yang Chengfu (1883-1936) 53 - Taiji
3. Cheng Man-Ching (1902 - 1975) 73 - Taiji

3 external MA masters:

1. Han Ching-Tang (1903-1976) 74 - long fist
2. Chang Tung Sheng (1908-1986) 78 - Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao)
3. Li Mao-Ching (1927-2024) 97 - long fist

From the above record, which MA training can help you to live longer? "Internal" or external?

Your thought?

 

[Xue Sheng]

3 "internal" MA masters:

1. Li Jingglin (1885-1931) 46 - Taiji
2. Yang Chengfu (1883-1936) 53 - Taiji
3. Cheng Man-Ching (1902 - 1975) 73 - Taiji

3 external MA masters:

1. Han Ching-Tang (1903-1976) 74 - long fist
2. Chang Tung Sheng (1908-1986) 78 - Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao)
3. Li Mao-Ching (1927-2024) 97 - long fist

Frome the above record, which MA can help you to live longer? "Internal" or external?

Your thought?

cherry picking names is not a comparison to make any judgement at all, other than you might be jaded

I could use

3 Internal
Li Luoneng (Chinese: 李洛能) (1807–1888) Xingyiquan 81
Fu Zhongwen (1903–1994) Yang taijiquan 91
Gao Yisheng 高義盛 (1866 - 1951) Baguazhang 84 or 85

3 External
Ip Man (1883 - 1972) Wing Chun 79
Li Shuwen (1864 - 1934) Bajiquan 70
Dang Fong 鄧芳 (1877 or 1879–12/20/1955) Hung Ga 79?

Or for internal
I could have picked Yang Chengfu 1883 - 1936 Taijiquan 53

and for external
Lam Cho (27 February 1910 – 29 March 2012) hung ga 102

There are also a xingyiquan guy and a couple bagua guys who got to 100

Basically, without a rather extensive study you cannot come to any conclusion at all..

I did a thing a while back comparing a whole lot of Taijiquan, Xingyiquan and Baguazhang masters and form that it looks like xingyiquan practioners on average get to an older that baguazhang guys and baguazhang guys live longer, on average, than taijiquan guys. However the oldest was a Bagua guy.

And even with all the names I researched I stikk did not consider any of that conclusive

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

baguazhang guys live longer, on average, than taijiquan guys. However the oldest was a Bagua guy.

- Bagua guy's circular walking,
- Long fist guy's 行步 Xing Bu,
- Shuai Chiao guy's 走矮步 low stance walking

The more that you can spend time in footwork (walking), the longer that you can live.

A lot of footwork is showing in this long fist form.

This video shows how important the fast forward footwork can do.

 

[Xue Sheng]

- Bagua guy's circular walking,
- Long fist guy's 行步 Xing Bu,
- Shuai Chiao guy's 走矮步 low stance walking

The more that you can spend time in footwork (walking), the longer that you can live.

A lot of footwork is showing in this long fist form.

This video shows how important the fast forward footwork can do.

and what does any of that do with your original question and justify your picks for comparison

Hung ga guys hit stuff hard...one made it to 102 ,yet another only got to 79...so what's your point

I suppose I could have added Cheng Tinghua, bagua, who died at 51 or 52, as an example....but then he was shot during the boxer rebellion.

Basically, my point is your test groups are meaningless and likely picked to support your prejudice against IMA tyles

 

[drop bear]

Pretty sure there are established links between strength training and longevity.

Strength training might lengthen life - Harvard Health

A 2022 study tracking 115,000 people 65 and older found that adding strength training to aerobic exercise lowered the risk of dying, regardless of cause, over nearly eight years of follow-up....

www.health.harvard.edu

 

[Same Trick]

Liu Da(famous pioneering Yang taiji teacher in the US) who himself reached the respectable age of 87 is claimed to have studied under a man named Li Chingyuen who supposedly lived to the amazing age of 256 -


Li Ching-Yuen (李清雲) - Qigong Master who lived a very long life Li Ching-Yuen (simplified Chinese: 李清云; traditional Ch... - samim


But there might have been a mixup of Li’s , another source say Liu Da learnd Yang Taiji from a Li Lichou, mentioned in this nice interesting article-


A Taoist in New York


Anyway what’s pointed out by by Liu Da and recalled about the 256 years old Li Chingyuen not only correctly exercising but also importance of food and drink for amazing longevity .

 

[frank raud]

Are we to assume that everyone you mention has the same genetics, same environment, same diet, etc., and the only differential is their choice of martial art? My mother in law is 93 and has never done any martial art. What should we attritubute her longevity to?

 

[Buka]

Are we to assume that everyone you mention has the same genetics, same environment, same diet, etc., and the only differential is their choice of martial art? My mother in law is 93 and has never done any martial art. What should we attritubute her longevity to?

Having a great son in law is my guess.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My mother in law is 93 and has never done any martial art. What should we attritubute her longevity to?

Moving is the answer.

If you move a

- tree, that tree will die.
- person, the person will live longer.

 

[frank raud]

So, internal or external martial art has nothing to do with longevity? Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I believe youth (aside from medical problems) to a large extent is a mindset. A 70-year-old man thinks he's old, so he acts old, and acting old can invite medical problems that will make you even older. It's a vicious circle of negative self-perception.

Moving is the answer.

I put this at the top of my list as well. Martial artists have a huge advantage as they know how to move, and activity has become a habit ingrained into their lifestyle. I think many old people have forgotten (mentally and physically) how to move.

Growing old is easy, you just go with the flow of time and the current will quickly carry you to your final rest. But to move against the current takes will power and discipline, elements many old people have cast aside. Not that I blame them. After a long life of battling all sorts of adversities and responsibilities it's easy to feel you've earned a rest. This is part of my daily battle - old man laziness vs. self-discipline. 80% of the time discipline wins out. I accept (and enjoy) the other 20%. Afterall, I'm old and have earned it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So, internal or external martial art has nothing to do with longevity? Thank you for clearing that up.

If you can be calm, your blood pressure will be low. That will be good for your longevity. IMO, to use breathing speed to control your body moving speed (not the other way around) can be helpful.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Martial artists have a huge advantage as they know how to move,

Martial artists also know how to maintain balance. IMO, 2 most important training for long life are:

1. Mobility.
2. Single leg balance.

 

[frank raud]

Moving is the answer.

If you move a

- tree, that tree will die.
- person, the person will live longer.

Hmm, my mother in law has outlived all but one on your list of examples, yet has never exercised in the 40 plus years I've known her. In fact, for the last several years, most of her time is spent lying down. Anyways, if moving is the answer, then once again the choice of internal or external martial art is irrelevant.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Hmm, my mother in law has outlived all but one on your list of examples, yet has never exercised in the 40 plus years I've known her. In fact, for the last several years, most of her time is spent lying down. Anyways, if moving is the answer, then once again the choice of internal or external martial art is irrelevant.

My mother was just the same. She lived to be 92. I hope I got those longevity genes. But to be honest, IMO she lived a bit past her time.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Pretty sure there are established links between strength training and longevity.

Strength training might lengthen life - Harvard Health

A 2022 study tracking 115,000 people 65 and older found that adding strength training to aerobic exercise lowered the risk of dying, regardless of cause, over nearly eight years of follow-up....

www.health.harvard.edu

Did you mean to post this in the taichi/weight training thread?

 

[drop bear]

Did you mean to post this in the taichi/weight training thread?

No. It was an example of external training making you live longer.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

No. It was an example of external training making you live longer.

So that proves that external martial arts can help live longer, but it doesn't say anything about the other half (if internal martial arts can help you live longer). Since that's a bit tangential (not all external martial arts is just weight training), I'll offer a slightly tangential one that's had research for internal martial arts: meditation. Here's an article citing multiple studies on how that helps live longer as well Can Meditation Help You Live Longer?

So you'd have to find a way to prove that external martial arts are more effective (which I doubt anyone's bothered to do a full study on honestly), or we can know that both help you live longer, and encourage practicing both.

 

[Xue Sheng]

No. It was an example of external training making you live longer.

It was not proof, it says "might" help.

Franky i don't doubt it does and some internal training supports weight training, See my post about the Chen family. Also there are some Bagua styles that want you to walk the circle holding bricks. So again, since some styles of IMA have no issue with weight training, and I bet if you go back far enough you get a lot of body weight training in virtually all of them (See XIngyiquan Santi shi). Heck my taiji shifu use to lay on his back the floor and then lift his legs off the floor, to a 45 degree angle to the floor, and stay that way for 20 minutes, and he is now in his 90s, but in his 70s he did tell me he thought he was getting old, he coudl only hold his legs that way for 15 minutes then. So the linked article does not prove external is better than internal, just says that weight lifting "Might" be important to longevity

But to be clear there is a rather large difference between "might", and does.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it doesn't say anything about the other half (if internal martial arts can help you live longer).

If you repeat your Karate form in slow motion, you should get the same health benefit than from Taiji form training.

I prefer to drill

- jab-cross-hook-uppercut-overhand 5 moves combo, or
- front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, back kick 4 moves combo,

over and over daily for my health than doing my Taiji form. This way, I can combine combat training and health training into 1 and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.