Internal = advanced in "hard" kungu and vicc

[23rdwave]

Exactly. No need to go high. Also, feint with fists, but kick knee, shin or instep with foot.

I am on one leg when I step or kick. Whenever I move I am on one leg. But I put the foot down before I kid myself that a flying tornado kick is the right move. John likes fancy stuff. I like simple.

 

[23rdwave]

actually not true Why Manny Pacquiao packs world's most powerful punch: science behind boxer's right hook

Pacquiao because of his speed punches DAMN hard at approximately 806 ft pounds. Tyson did punch harder yes, due to the same physics. While never formally tested analysis of fight videos showed a peak of 1,178 lbs. Rock Marciano, as comparison for both, was formally tested at 925 lbs.

Now you might say that "well Mike punches are 46% more powerful!" Yes but lets look at what 806 lbs for force can break...
Throat- 300 lbs of force
Zygomatic-800 lbs
mandible - 800 lbs
maxilla - 500 lbs
Lat. Maxilla - 700 lbs
"nasal bone"- 200 lbs
Cervical vertebra - 500 lbs
area above the ear - 650 lbs

So while Speed is only part of the equation it is an important part, and yes Pacquiao could hurt Lesnar, just not as much as Tyson. Also as Tyson typically fought at around 220lbs and in the test we see Manny weighing in at 152 lbs. we see the importance of speed to the equation.

Ask Manny if he thinks he could hurt Lesnar. There would be no twenty punches. Manny would never get in the ring with him. 46% more powerful is a game changer. Don't you think?

 

[Juany118]

Ask Manny if he thinks he could hurt Lesnar. There would be no twenty punches. Manny would never get in the ring with him. 46% more powerful is a game changer. Don't you think?

You're dodging my point. We were talking about speed as it relates to power, which is a product of speed when used with properly applied mass. Size differences include factors that go beyond that simple equation however, not simply power but reach, "armor" for body shots etc. Add in the fact Lesnar is also a wrestler and of course Manny wouldn't want to fight him BUT that isn't the point. The point is, talking about force/power, speed is a factor and, if forcibly compelled to fight Lesnar, Manny could actually "hurt" Lesnar because he can generate the force required to do so. Remember being able to hurt =/= winning.

 

[23rdwave]

You're dodging my point. We were talking about speed as it relates to power, which is a product of speed when used with properly applied mass. Size differences include factors that go beyond that simple equation however, not simply power but reach, "armor" for body shots etc. Add in the fact Lesnar is also a wrestler and of course Manny wouldn't want to fight him BUT that isn't the point. The point is, talking about force/power, speed is a factor and, if forcibly compelled to fight Lesnar, Manny could actually "hurt" Lesnar because he can generate the force required to do so. Remember being able to hurt =/= winning.

We don't use speed in the internal arts except for moving out of the way and getting one's hands up. When we bridge we take the opponent's force and give it back to him but at his pace not ours.

Your definition is an external one.

 

[Juany118]

We don't use speed in the internal arts except for moving out of the way and getting one's hands up. When we bridge we take the opponent's force and give it back to him but at his pace not ours.

Your definition is an external one.

Hmmmm really, I think you need to read @Xue Sheng and his posts regarding Xingyi and certain styles of Taijiquan that are internal but also use speed with punching. I think Xingyi is likely the best example, in attack can be very linear (being based in part on how one would fight with staffs and spears likely has much to do with it) and greatly relies on speed and explosive movements for its punching power achieved via the overall use of movement and body structure.

That unified movement of the body with proper form is an overarching definition of "internal" arts. On the other hand, speed, or lack thereof, is not and has never been part of an overarching definition of what makes an internal art. Cultivation of speed, or lack there of, is however a defining factor in specific styles, both internal and external. There is a difference. So to say that my definition is an external one is simply wrong.

Speed as a factor in Force is a Law of physics. All the Qi in the world can't change that. Some arts maximize how the body applies mass, others speed, some balance the two. This dynamic exists in both external and internal styles.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We don't use speed in the internal arts except for moving out of the way and getting one's hands up.

If there is a $100 bill on the ground, an external guy can pick it up faster than an "internal" guy can. You will also need speed to bend forward and drop your hand.

 

[mograph]

If there is a $100 bill on the ground, an external guy can pick it up faster than an "internal" guy can. You will also need speed to bend forward and drop your hand.

Okay, now you're just making stuff up. Do you really think that internal guys move like molasses?

 

[Juany118]

Okay, now you're just making stuff up. Do you really think that internal guys move like molasses?

I think people may be getting punch frequency mixed up with punching speed. There is a difference. Or maybe some people just think "their" internal art encompasses the rules of all? I hope not because that is just silly.

What you showed there is also simply a drill. In real practice the "set up" is done far faster as well.

 

[mograph]

What you showed there is also simply a drill. In real practice the "set up" is done far faster as well.

Oh, yes. (I'm studying Xingyiquan, though not from this gentleman.) Strictly speaking, that's a form, not a drill. But since a high percentage of a Xingyi form is repetitive, it might as well be a drill.

Unlike what some might think, Xingyiquan practitioners wouldn't hang there in space for a moment before striking. Only an idiot would think that a martial artist would fight slowly, or that a teacher would require his students to fight slowly.

 

[Juany118]

Oh, yes. (I'm studying Xingyiquan, though not from this gentleman.) Strictly speaking, that's a form, not a drill. But since a high percentage of a Xingyi form is repetitive, it might as well be a drill.

Unlike what some might think, Xingyiquan practitioners wouldn't hang there in space for a moment before striking. Only an idiot would think that a martial artist would fight slowly, or that a teacher would require his students to fight slowly.

Sorry for my lack of understanding on the fact it is a form. I simply understood no one in their right mind would actually fight that way lol.

There is a school in my area that teacher it under the name Hsing I. I love Kali (and to a lesser extent Wing Chun my school teaches both) but there is something about Xing Yi that interests me to no end.

 

[Xue Sheng]

We don't use speed in the internal arts except for moving out of the way and getting one's hands up. When we bridge we take the opponent's force and give it back to him but at his pace not ours.

Your definition is an external one.

Actually we do use speed in internal martial arts, and we take the opponents force too. But talking the 3 "internal" arts, they all have different approaches to application and fighting. I have said for some time that Taiji has nothing but patience, bagua has half the patience of taiji and xingyi has no patience at all.

But I still maintain that the entire Internal vs External thing is a complete waste of time. There are multiple definitions of internal and external that range from the way trained to where it came from (inside or outside of China). It seems to have first appeared in the late 1600s and it was more of a political statement than anything else. And there have been multiple times it usage was pure hubris. And ultimately, if you train the "internal arts" or the "external arts" properly, they both end up in the same place in the end.

Basically, and this may be the Xingyi guy in me speaking, but when it comes to training CMA and Internal vs External the best advice I can give is, shut up and train

 

[clfsean]

Basically, and this may be the Xingyi guy in me speaking, but when it comes to training CMA and Internal vs External the best advice I can give is, shut up and train

This ... This is winning of the internet. Discussion is pretty moot from here.

 

[mograph]

Sorry for my lack of understanding on the fact it is a form. I simply understood no one in their right mind would actually fight that way lol.

No kidding! For some arts, their forms look like fighting, and for some arts, their forms don't look like fighting. It's incumbent on us as observers and practitioners to look deeper, beyond appearances and determine whether the forms adequately prepare the practitioner to fight. Conversely, some forms may look like fighting, but they might just teach fast choreography with nothing behind it.

Basically, and this may be the Xingyi guy in me speaking, but when it comes to training CMA and Internal vs External the best advice I can give is, shut up and train

Indeed.

 

[23rdwave]

Xue Sheng, according to your blog you may need to follow your own advice.

I have never crossed hands with someone from an external art that felt internal. Or had any idea how to get there on their own. And I have been doing this for 20 years in Northern California where we have a huge Asian population and many notable teachers.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng, according to your blog you may need to follow your own advice.

I have never crossed hands with someone from an external art that felt internal. Or had any idea how to get there on their own. And I have been doing this for 20 years in Northern California where we have a huge Asian population and many notable teachers.

What advice in my blog are you referring too?

I have been doing this (taijiquan) for 25 years (all teachers born, raised and trained in China) and trained I have with multiple Asians. My Taijiquan linage goes to Tung Ying Chieh. And there are 2 fast forms that come from Tung Ying Chieh and he, as well as my sifu, only trained Taijiquan. My lineage is much more complicated in Xingyiquan, but then I don't actually feel I have one in Xingyiquan since I have trained with multiple people and I would not be considered a student of any of them. And my Bagua training is much less and again no teacher I would be affiliated with. I guess the closet in Bagua would be to BP Chan or Frank Allen, Xingyi could be BP Chan, Liang Shouyu, and a few other guys in China whose names I do not know. But then I do not claim a lineage in Bagua or XIngyi.

But all that has nothing to do with the conversation or the statement you made previosuly.....you were not talking about "felt internal". You said

We don't use speed in the internal arts except for moving out of the way and getting one's hands up.

But the fact is we do use speed in internal arts. Internal arts is referring to Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan. I would also add Yiquan and Liuhebafa too. Xingyi and Bagua use speed in attack and defense and taiji can and does as well, just not to the extent of Xingyi or Bagau. Now if you want to talk about crossing hands with hard stylists and feeling internal, that is a different topic all together.

Also, based on this

When we bridge we take the opponent's force and give it back to him but at his pace not ours.

If you are "bridging with a "external" stylist, his past will be fast and using speed so once again an internal person needs to use, know and understand speed.

I have crossed hands with a few hard stylist myself and if you do not understand or use speed, or at least redirect at speed with a Wing Chun person you will get pummeled. I also crossed hands with a Sanda person who actually felt rather internal, but, he was to dependent on using muscular force in attack and that was his undoing. But again he was fast and powerful and if I did not use speed (and you can be relaxed and fast) I would have not faired as well.

Edit and Note: The Sanda person was Police/Military Sanda and was born, raised and trained in Heilongjiang

 

[mograph]

I have never crossed hands with someone from an external art that felt internal. Or had any idea how to get there on their own. And I have been doing this for 20 years in Northern California where we have a huge Asian population and many notable teachers.

Would it be right to interpret your statement as meaning that you haven't yet found someone who can integrate internal and external? If so, and apologies to Xue Sheng, this might be the relevant section of his earlier post:

And ultimately, if you train the "internal arts" or the "external arts" properly, they both end up in the same place in the end.

(My emphasis.)

But of course, even if the art is not taught well enough to merge concepts thought of as "internal" or "external," it might still meet the threshold of being an effective fighting art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I train Jow Ga Kung Fu and the system has both "hard" and "soft" techniques. I think the system views it as a balance. I also train Tai Chi and while most of it is soft there are parts that are hard. The only difference is the duration in which hard technique is applied versus the duration in which soft technique is applied. Hard styles will often smash things by default and then use internal methods in flashes. Soft styles will often use soft techniques by default and will smash things only for a short flash of time and only when needed.

In Jow Ga most of our hard techniques have a soft version of the same technique. Some techniques can enter using force and exit using soft techniques. But with that said, we smash by default.

If I may paraphrase Capt. America: "Jow Ga, smash!"

 

[mograph]

If I may paraphrase Capt. America: "Jow Ga, smash!"

 

[23rdwave]

Basically, and this may be the Xingyi guy in me speaking, but when it comes to training CMA and Internal vs External the best advice I can give is, shut up and train

With all that blogging (talking) where do you find time to train?

No matter the pace of the fight I aim to control my opponent at first touch, what the Japanese call kuzushi. Then I ride his "energy", if you will. So it is his speed or lack there of that dictates how fast I move. When he touches me he becomes part of me. I don't have to use speed to control him. Or conventional strength.

 

[23rdwave]

Would it be right to interpret your statement as meaning that you haven't yet found someone who can integrate internal and external? If so, and apologies to Xue Sheng, this might be the relevant section of his earlier post:
(My emphasis.)

But of course, even if the art is not taught well enough to merge concepts thought of as "internal" or "external," it might still meet the threshold of being an effective fighting art.

Everyone I train with started out with hard styles and some still do both but they try to integrate the internal in their external arts until the external recedes into the background. But they all realize the two are mostly incompatible.