Internal = advanced in "hard" kungu and vicc

[Xue Sheng]

Taijiquan is placed firmly in the internal category and yet we have 2 fast sets and one of those is real big on qinna, and there is a lot of qinna in the long (slow) form as well.

 

[mograph]

Personally, I think there are internal and external techniques and methods, and that a good art should include both.

Also, I think that different people respond differently to each, so it's not a given that one should always be taught before the other. But I also get that it would be difficult to teach a medium--to-large class by tailoring the order and pace to each student.

 

[greytowhite]

Mmm... even in "strictly" internal arts there are certain skills that some develop that others don't. A lot of it is the individual but also the style is important. Training external to internal or internal to external may lead to a mix of soft and hard but the skills may not be the same.

 

[clfsean]

Same engine, different transmission & drive train

 

[mograph]

Same engine, different transmission & drive train

Now that's worth reflecting upon.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How will you throw 5 continuous punches? If you punch as

- fast, fast, fast, fast, fast, you are training external.
- fast, slow, fast, slow, fast, you are training "internal".

If you understand how to use your previous punch to help you to generate more power in your next punch, you are training "internal".

Unfortunately, in fighting, you may not have that luxury to use a slow move to help a fast move. The "internal" concept start to be unrealistic.

 

[Juany118]

How will you throw 5 continuous punches? If you punch as

- fast, fast, fast, fast, fast, you are training external.
- fast, slow, fast, slow, fast, you are training "internal".

If you understand how to use your previous punch to help you to generate more power in your next punch, you are training "internal".

Unfortunately, in fighting, you may not have that luxury to use a slow move to help a fast move. The "internal" concept start to be unrealistic.

So WC is internal? Part of the whole part of relaxing upon the strike, and not being tense, is about making the punch faster. Speed does = more force when it is properly applied... Mass * velocity and all of that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

How will you throw 5 continuous punches? If you punch as

- fast, fast, fast, fast, fast, you are training external.
- fast, slow, fast, slow, fast, you are training "internal".

If you understand how to use your previous punch to help you to generate more power in your next punch, you are training "internal".

Unfortunately, in fighting, you may not have that luxury to use a slow move to help a fast move. The "internal" concept start to be unrealistic.

Interesting, except Xingyi is internal and does not practice fast slow fast slow...it practices fast...and yet it is still considered internal, and some style of Bagua do the same

 

[Juany118]

Interesting, except Xingyi is internal and does not practice fast slow fast slow...it practices fast...and yet it is still considered internal, and some style of Bagua do the same

That is why earlier I said the lines were so blurry. I used to them them firmly, until I started studying WC under my Sifu. I now find myself asking if those terms are simply marketing techniques?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So WC is internal? Part of the whole part of relaxing upon the strike, and not being tense, is about making the punch faster. Speed does = more force when it is properly applied... Mass * velocity and all of that.

If you have read enough "internal" posts, most "internal" guys like to talk about

- power generation, don't like to talk about speed generation.
- punch, don't like to talk about kick.
- soft, don't like to talk about hard.
- 2 feet balance, don't like to talk about single leg balance.
- ...

This just put too much restrictions on "internal" and keep it away from reality.

 

[Juany118]

If you have read enough "internal" posts, most "internal" guys like to talk about

- power generation, don't like to talk about speed generation.
- punch, don't like to talk about kick.
- soft, don't like to talk about hard.
- 2 feet balance, don't like to talk about single leg balance.
- ...

This just put too much restrictions on "internal" and keep it away from reality.

I have read enough. Apparently I am not the only one confused by you fast>slow>fast description however if you look at @Xue Sheng post. My point was to largely question your definition of internal arts since it seemed kinda limited. Well perhaps not your personal one but the one you expressed.

 

[23rdwave]

If you have read enough "internal" posts, most "internal" guys like to talk about

- power generation, don't like to talk about speed generation.
- punch, don't like to talk about kick.
- soft, don't like to talk about hard.
- 2 feet balance, don't like to talk about single leg balance.
- ...

This just put too much restrictions on "internal" and keep it away from reality.

If one has sufficient power one needs less speed. Manny Pacquiao could hit Brock Lesnar twenty times and not hurt him but one Mike Tyson punch could knock him out.

I kick only below the waist and mostly from the knee on down. I have yet to knock someone out by kicking them in the leg. And, yes, I know what a groin shot is.

One needs to 'soft' to change. You are too 'hard' headed to understand.

Why do you want to stand on one leg? You have two. Do you sit on the toilet with one cheek?

You are the one who is putting restrictions on their fight game. I have no intent. Anything goes. You say 1 is better than 1, 2 and 1, 2 is better than 1, 2, 3. How can one of your combos be 1? Do the math.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If you have read enough "internal" posts, most "internal" guys like to talk about

- power generation, don't like to talk about speed generation.
- punch, don't like to talk about kick.
- soft, don't like to talk about hard.
- 2 feet balance, don't like to talk about single leg balance.
- ...

This just put too much restrictions on "internal" and keep it away from reality.

My taiji shifu, student of Tung Ying Chieh, and has been doing only Taijiquan for close to 60 years or more, talks about power generation and speed in application talks about punches and kicks, however admittedly that are not as many punches as you would find in Wing CHun or Changquan and no where the number of kickes you find in Changquan or white crane. He also talks about hard, especially in one of the fast forms (speed) where there are 2 strikes that are hard and much like a Shaolin form and absolutely talks about and had us train balance on 1 foot, 2 feet and while moving.

Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei also talks about power, speed, punch, kick, soft, hard and balance on one foot.

All 3 are internal guys.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why do you want to stand on one leg? You have two. Do you sit on the toilet with one cheek?

If you want to use your leg to attack your opponent, you have to raise your leg off the ground and you will have only one leg left for standing.

 

[23rdwave]

When I step towards my opponent I lift my front leg and kick his knee or shin or step/stomp his ankle or foot. Like in xingyi dragon. I kick with that first step or crash into his knee or thigh with my knee. I don't have to raise my leg much at all to do this.

 

[Juany118]

If one has sufficient power one needs less speed. Manny Pacquiao could hit Brock Lesnar twenty times and not hurt him but one Mike Tyson punch could knock him out.

actually not true Why Manny Pacquiao packs world's most powerful punch: science behind boxer's right hook

Pacquiao because of his speed punches DAMN hard at approximately 806 ft pounds. Tyson did punch harder yes, due to the same physics. While never formally tested analysis of fight videos showed a peak of 1,178 lbs. Rock Marciano, as comparison for both, was formally tested at 925 lbs.

Now you might say that "well Mike punches are 46% more powerful!" Yes but lets look at what 806 lbs for force can break...
Throat- 300 lbs of force
Zygomatic-800 lbs
mandible - 800 lbs
maxilla - 500 lbs
Lat. Maxilla - 700 lbs
"nasal bone"- 200 lbs
Cervical vertebra - 500 lbs
area above the ear - 650 lbs

So while Speed is only part of the equation it is an important part, and yes Pacquiao could hurt Lesnar, just not as much as Tyson. Also as Tyson typically fought at around 220lbs and in the test we see Manny weighing in at 152 lbs. we see the importance of speed to the equation.

 

[Juany118]

My taiji shifu, student of Tung Ying Chieh, and has been doing only Taijiquan for close to 60 years or more, talks about power generation and speed in application talks about punches and kicks, however admittedly that are not as many punches as you would find in Wing CHun or Changquan and no where the number of kickes you find in Changquan or white crane. He also talks about hard, especially in one of the fast forms (speed) where there are 2 strikes that are hard and much like a Shaolin form and absolutely talks about and had us train balance on 1 foot, 2 feet and while moving.

Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei also talks about power, speed, punch, kick, soft, hard and balance on one foot.

All 3 are internal guys.

Yeah, I think this kinda just brings us back to semantics again. I really think this idea of "internal vs external" is dogmatic to an extent. Lets just boil it down to the basics (mechanically) that seem to apply to all internal martial arts. Typically all internal martial arts use the entire body as a single unit with the muscles coordinated according to their function. Power is thus generated by the combination of speed and mass being applied by this "single unit." The proponents of internal martial arts will then say that external arts do not use the body as a complete unit but rather as "sectional power." They say they do not use the body as a whole but rather use the upper body as supported by a firm stance with the lower body. They will also say they rely more on the cultivation of muscle.

However their are "external" arts that use the entire body, its simply more subtle. An example is some arts which will have you turn slightly from the waist as you also bend the knees slightly and sink your hips as you throw the punch to maximize mass behind a punch without compromising speed. Then add in arts like Wing Chun which rely on unifying your body structure as well in order to maximize the use of the bodies total skeletal structure to support attacks and defense, vs the cultivation of muscle. Imo the above meets the requirements of what many say makes an art "internal", they simply tend to be more "linear" and even then Xingyi can be quite linear can't it?

So in the end what makes an internal vs external art to me. The dogma. Most Internal martial arts are based VERY firmly in Taoist belief systems. The arts we call "external" tend to be based on Confuscian or Buddhist belief systems

 

[Flying Crane]

actually not true Why Manny Pacquiao packs world's most powerful punch: science behind boxer's right hook

Pacquiao because of his speed punches DAMN hard at approximately 806 ft pounds. Tyson did punch harder yes, due to the same physics. While never formally tested analysis of fight videos showed a peak of 1,178 lbs. Rock Marciano, as comparison for both, was formally tested at 925 lbs.

Now you might say that "well Mike punches are 46% more powerful!" Yes but lets look at what 806 lbs for force can break...
Throat- 300 lbs of force
Zygomatic-800 lbs
mandible - 800 lbs
maxilla - 500 lbs
Lat. Maxilla - 700 lbs
"nasal bone"- 200 lbs
Cervical vertebra - 500 lbs
area above the ear - 650 lbs

So while Speed is only part of the equation it is an important part, and yes Pacquiao could hurt Lesnar, just not as much as Tyson. Also as Tyson typically fought at around 220lbs and in the test we see Manny weighing in at 152 lbs. we see the importance of speed to the equation.

I'm not a fan of fight science, they overly simplify the variables so the results are questionable at best.

But the bottom line is, Manny can punch hard enough to hurt anyone, including Brock Lesnar or Mike Tyson, if he landed the punch. The possibility that these men can punch harder, due to their larger physiques, does not negate that fact.

 

[Juany118]

I'm not a fan of fight science, they overly simplify the variables so the results are questionable at best.

But the bottom line is, Manny can punch hard enough to hurt anyone, including Brock Lesnar or Mike Tyson, if he landed the punch. The possibility that these men can punch harder, due to their larger physiques, does not negate that fact.

Well I look at it as no different than when you buy a car with bhp in mind. There are other variables, road surface, tires, torque etc BUT it still is a useful metric, it simply can't be used as the only metric.

 

[mograph]

I kick with that first step or crash into his knee or thigh with my knee. I don't have to raise my leg much at all to do this.

Exactly. No need to go high. Also, feint with fists, but kick knee, shin or instep with foot.