Interested in learning Reiki, where to start.

[shesulsa]

I have seen some pretty amazing stuff in my life so I am not so easy to debunk anything right off the bat. Some stuff I have witnessed, was well astronishing.

:asian:

My only gripe with Reiki

is anyone and I mean anyone who accepts alot of money and makes someone a master level or instructor over a weekend course. (how much depth and training can they really have) That is my only complaint and the same goes for any martial art that does the same thing and there are alot of people doing it right now.

Yup - that's my main gripe too. That and people who sell "Reiki massages." :soapbox:

 

[Empty Hands]

I look at this in part in the same way western science looks at TCM. They hae the attitude "we can't explain it, we can't messure it, it must be bunk", yet there's thousands of years of proof.l

No, that just isn't true. I published links to a number of scientific studies measuring the effects of reiki on various patient populations. Science is studying this topic, and yes, mainly finding it to be bunk. By the scientific method however, not by assumption.

As for the thousands of years of proof, did all of those old practicioners engage in double blinded examinations of large numbers of patients? The placebo effect is a powerful one, and a particularly tricky one for methods like reiki. A thousand years of anecdotes is not really that impressive when other explanations can be responsible for what is seen.

Hell, we can't "see" a black hole, just it's effects but we believe in them....

We have rigorous mathematical theories based on proven physics models to predict black holes, and rigorous empirical proof to show us that those black holes exist. If we had the same thing for reiki, no one would doubt its effectiveness.

 

[East Winds]

Shesulsa,

Thanks for your very reasoned and thoughtful input on this thread. However I'm afraid I'm with Empty Hands on this one. A couple of "Reiki Masters" I've spoken with, tell me they protect themselves from negative energy by using a special word? I'm very sorry but "special words" come into the
field of "magic" as far as I'm concerned.

However I always like to think I have an open mind and would certainly like to hear more input from you on this subject.

With very best wishes

 

[shesulsa]

Shesulsa,

Thanks for your very reasoned and thoughtful input on this thread. However I'm afraid I'm with Empty Hands on this one. A couple of "Reiki Masters" I've spoken with, tell me they protect themselves from negative energy by using a special word? I'm very sorry but "special words" come into the
field of "magic" as far as I'm concerned.

You owe me a new monitor and a new keyboard. And a coke. Better make it iced tea because coke burns like heck coming out my nose. A "special word???" Okay, okay - two questions:

1. What were they smoking?
2. Where can I get some?

There are a LOT of charlatans in Reiki - AND - many people perceive healing as regeneration (severed arm, anyone?). There are people who perform Reiki who work in hospice to aid the death transition. Death is permanent healing if you think about it! :lol2:

Many people who get their $20,000 weekend Master Level Reiki attunement and go try to 'heal' people (most practitioners have, I think, done this) are really just dumping their very own energy onto another person. THAT'S NOT REIKI. True Reiki is the power of the Holy Spirit and should be at least the equivalent if not stronger than the power of prayer.

However I always like to think I have an open mind and would certainly like to hear more input from you on this subject.

With very best wishes

To be honset, I'm so scattered with my efforts I can only offer what I know. I don't feel great about flying around scanning internet articles on this and "proving" anything. I don't have high respect for scientific double-blind studies because they have been performed on drugs now taken off the market. They have fallen in great favor of the placebo affect, however I don't see doctors prescribing placebos - I see them prescribing designer drugs you or your family will have to see a lawyer about later. I have about as much respect for these as I do for the countless charlatans claiming to tell your future, cure your cancer with psychic surgery, knock you out with chi balls or sell you oceanfront property in Arizona.

It is not easy to find good, real Reiki practitioners and I wish ANYONE looking for one the luck of the world.

Peace.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Dear Empty Hands can you please define Reiki in the usage by these science studies? Also the studies you have mentioned what music type was used and for how long? How old were the age groups? In these studies mentioned I did not see any answers to these questions and I am sure similar studies have found opposing views.

I think of Reiki as most Japanese think of Reiki. I think Bob if you are interest in learning this read about the history of the development if it did come from a Tendai priest look into what the Tendai sect used as far as healing rituals from there you will be more informed than by books that come out that mix Dolphins and Angels as advertised in my newspaper.

 

[Empty Hands]

I don't have high respect for scientific double-blind studies because they have been performed on drugs now taken off the market.

So because some studies have been proven wrong, they all must be? By this logic, since some Reiki practicioners are by your own words charlatans, then all of Reiki is bunk.

Instead of scientific studies, what would you put in their place to tell us something objective about the world? Tradition? Anecdotes? The sincere belief of Reiki practicioners that what they do is real? Scientologists sincerely believe that what they practice is real too, that doesn't make it so.

As for the effects you or any other practicioner claims to feel, that can be subjective. Even a 9 year old girl in the referenced JAMA article was able to perform a simple experiment to show that touch healers were no better than random chance at detecting these fields they claim are so powerful and work so well.

They have fallen in great favor of the placebo affect, however I don't see doctors prescribing placebos - I see them prescribing designer drugs you or your family will have to see a lawyer about later.

No drug is approved for use by the FDA unless it can be shown to have an effect greater than placebo. While sometimes wrong or at least wrong about side effects, no alternative therapies including touch healing or herbs have to meet this standard. All we have to go by is your word.

As for the placebo, it can have a great effect. The initial characterization by Beecher showed that 35% of the control group saw relief of symptoms. If a sugar pill can relieve your pain by placebo, why not healing touch?

I have about as much respect for these as I do for the countless charlatans claiming to tell your future, cure your cancer with psychic surgery, knock you out with chi balls or sell you oceanfront property in Arizona.

That is pretty telling, really. A doctor prescribing a med is doing so with a real intention to help, using the best, if flawed, science available at the time. Charlatans are just trying to cheat you.

In any case, what material difference is there between claims of Reiki and psychic surgery and Chi balls? You seem to hold those ideas to a higher standard than you do Reiki, even though all three make some of the same basic claims.

 

[Empty Hands]

Dear Empty Hands can you please define Reiki in the usage by these science studies? Also the studies you have mentioned what music type was used and for how long? How old were the age groups? In these studies mentioned I did not see any answers to these questions and I am sure similar studies have found opposing views.

The methodology varied by study, and is described in each article. You can access the full article through medline and the link I have provided. If you have trouble, let me know, and I'll see what I can do.

As for opposing studies, a few did find a positive effect. However, they used such poor study design that I did not feel comfortable posting them.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I have little respct for the FDA. After all, they fast tracked Nutrasweet and Splenda (which cause serious problems) and hmm n haw on natural products like Stevia and Ginseng. (discussions elsewhere here, so if anyone wants to discuss them, please kick up one of those topics. )

Here's a side bar, sort of related.
There are a great deal of books out and an even greater number of websites that prescribe gem stones for everything from ghost busting to gall stone removal. I've yet to find a single scientific study that says these are anything but pretty stones, with a few industrial uses. But, based on something I read, I stuck 9 clear quartz stones under my pillow, and have slept soundly since then (4 days). The article was very specific, must be 9, not 8 not 7, must do XY & Z before use, must redo XY & Z daily, etc. I'm a skeptic of the 5th degree, can't explain it, yet...it worked.

So, while I do put value into scientific studies, I'm also aware that there are those things that science currently can't explain, that current medicine doesn't understand, that still exist and still work, despite our 'knowledge' that says otherwise.

Remember, according to science, and experiments, and the experts, a Bumblebee can't fly.

That said, there is much value in looking at the tests and their results.
When doing tests, all factors must be examined, including the test criteria.

Simply put, despite the opposing views (and resulting ah, frustrations, I see here and there) so far, it's all been good information. Please, keep the info flowing and restrain the frustrations. I for one am learning alot and hope others find this of value too.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

The methodology varied by study, and is described in each article. You can access the full article through medline and the link I have provided. If you have trouble, let me know, and I'll see what I can do.

As for opposing studies, a few did find a positive effect. However, they used such poor study design that I did not feel comfortable posting them.

I did try to access the full article something about paying for something the other article about the 9 year old girl I could not access due to cookie. I admit a 9 year coming to such a conclusion is pretty advance considering my nephew being 10 thinks of cartoons and soccer. I do think I got the gist of it my only problem with test involving Qi or Reiki is what modern science it trying to define the words as and performing studies on a false defination which of course would result in a false study.


I was discussing the meaning of Reiki in Japanese with my wife and its attention to health healing massage what have you and the meaning of the word Reiki deals with a feeling as if someone is watching you or in a more common idea the feeling of a ghost. If you use the word Reiki in Japan people will not think of some sort of healing massage but more about ghosts. If any of those who practice Ninpo taijutsu ala Ninjutsu know about saying they practice Ninjutsu how average Japanese look at them.

 

[Empty Hands]

I have little respct for the FDA. After all, they fast tracked Nutrasweet and Splenda (which cause serious problems) and hmm n haw on natural products like Stevia and Ginseng. (discussions elsewhere here, so if anyone wants to discuss them, please kick up one of those topics. )

No one says that the FDA or the drug system in general is perfect. However, anyone wanting to sell a pharmaceutical in the US still has to meet a scientific evidentiary burden. That is something important, no matter how flawed it can be. It is also a burden that alternative therapies don't have to meet.

But, based on something I read, I stuck 9 clear quartz stones under my pillow, and have slept soundly since then (4 days).

Instruct a friend to swap the stones with "wrong" ones sometime without your knowledge, and keep track of the dates. You keep track of how you're sleeping. Do this over a few weeks or months. If "good" sleep matches with "good" stones and "bad" sleep with "bad" stones then you might have something. You also can't do it yourself - you will know, and the placebo effect kicks in.

If all that works, try it on 100 of your friends. If "good" matches with "good" more than random chance would expect, then maybe there is something to this stone thing.

Without that, how can we really know what is causing your improved sleep?

So, while I do put value into scientific studies, I'm also aware that there are those things that science currently can't explain, that current medicine doesn't understand, that still exist and still work, despite our 'knowledge' that says otherwise.

It's in the mindset and approach more than anything. A scientific outlook accepts gaps in knowledge, and tries to fill them with an evidence based explanation. It may not be a perfect explanation, but it will get better with time - that is the scientific method. A mystical outlook sees the gaps, and invents mystical explanations without evidence to fill them. Maybe reiki is real, but it will take science to determine that for sure.

Remember, according to science, and experiments, and the experts, a Bumblebee can't fly.

That is a myth.
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_045.html

I for one am learning alot and hope others find this of value too.

Sure, me too. No one should think my mind is closed - I am happy to be presented with evidence that might change my mind. I have looked for it myself though, and found what was available wanting.

 

[Empty Hands]

I did try to access the full article something about paying for something the other article about the 9 year old girl I could not access due to cookie.

I'll see what I can do.

I admit a 9 year coming to such a conclusion is pretty advance considering my nephew being 10 thinks of cartoons and soccer.

That's why it got into JAMA! None of my research these days would get into such a prestigious journal. Maybe next year...

 

[Live True]

I have seen some pretty amazing stuff in my life so I am not so easy to debunk anything right off the bat. Some stuff I have witnessed, was well astronishing. My only gripe with Reiki is anyone and I mean anyone who accepts alot of money and makes someone a master level or instructor over a weekend course. (how much depth and training can they really have) That is my only complaint and the same goes for any martial art that does the same thing and there are alot of people doing it right now.

Like so many things that are outside of the considered norm, Reiki draws a whole lot of nutcases and folks who want to be heroes and saints. I have a similar problem with practitioners who charges a whole lot of money for sessions, reiki massages, and the fast track/new age/bunk that helps folks believe that they can learn enlightenment in just 10 easy installments for $19.99 (plus shipping and handling and a gratuity to the professor....)

Let me also say I have a wide circle of friends and acquaintances that range from science nerd to redneck to eclectic individuals to new age quacks (and I won't state where I fall in that continuum:rofl I simply try to keep an open mind to the many possibilities our world presents, and I like interesting conversations. I do not believe or agree with everything, but I listen to all and pick the grains of truth that speak to me......

That said, I know several folks who "practice" reiki, and each has a varying level of my confidence in thier abilities.One, is a co-worker who does massages on the side and talks about how he manipulates energies and gets all hyped up on the interchange (and the noice cash flow)......:uhyeah:ewwwww

One is a friend who believes he is a reincarnation of an ancient Atlantian healer, and he offers his energy manipulations to his freinds and family for free. He is also a certified massage therapist. I have not partaken of his skills, but I know several freinds who rave about his talent and how he helps them deal with pain (one being a woman with fibromyalgia and swears his sessions help her on bad days).

The last is a shaman who I have been seeing for a few months. She doesn't set a fee, and considers my donations of home cooked meals and a small cash donation as a generous exchange. I went to my first session not expecting a lot and figuring that it couldn't hurt to try. I can only speak from my experience, but I have felt warmth, tingles, and energy flows that were not related to any physical sensations..I have felt dizzy and then felt the world right itself...and I have had images and thoughts rise and lead me to insights during and after these sessions. I know her hands generate warmth as she moves along my body...and she rarely actually touches me. I can feel the heat from several inches away. I don't seek to explain or to convince anyone...these are my own experiences that I choose to share.

I do not think that every practicitioner has a clue or even the necessary skills. I do not think this is a path that would work for everyone, and it is even possible that she is simple a conduit to help me bring out things that I already knew on a deeper level. But it has worked dramatic changes in how I view my self, my past, and the energy I carry...and she is also the person who finally gave me the encouragement I needed to start MA...so I think there is something in this.

Bob, I agree with Shesulsa....speak to several practitioners...books are a good starting place, but a teacher is priceless....just make sure they resonate with you. I wish you well!

 

[Cruentus]

I've dealt with a few vampires. brrrr. It's good to see both pro and con information. Alot of what I read just seems ah, non-functional, but it's contradicted by a different source. I'm finding this happening alot as people with minimal real knowledge get books published. (Most of the Feng Shui books I find are written by New Age mix-n-matchers, for example).

I saw the "jump 3 levels to mastery in a week" stuff and it set off red flags, however I do see as true much of the ideas I read in reiki, as well as qi etc.

See; I am of the opinion that when people start talking in terms of "levels" in regards to things that cannot be objectively verified, then it is bull ****. The obvious question is how can you determine a level if you cannot objectively verify what seperates one level from another, or objectively verify results? At that point, it is all subjective posturing and pigeon holing to make people feel more powerful or better then another.

As to not charging money; if you had verifiable results and benefits to a customer that could be demonstrated, then there should be no problems with charging money. Because you don't have that with Reiki, then to charge would be unethical. What would you be paying for? At that point it amounts to paying for someone to pray for you...

 

[Cruentus]

You owe me a new monitor and a new keyboard. And a coke. Better make it iced tea because coke burns like heck coming out my nose. A "special word???" Okay, okay - two questions:

1. What were they smoking?
2. Where can I get some?

There are a LOT of charlatans in Reiki - AND - many people perceive healing as regeneration (severed arm, anyone?). There are people who perform Reiki who work in hospice to aid the death transition. Death is permanent healing if you think about it! :lol2:

Many people who get their $20,000 weekend Master Level Reiki attunement and go try to 'heal' people (most practitioners have, I think, done this) are really just dumping their very own energy onto another person. THAT'S NOT REIKI. True Reiki is the power of the Holy Spirit and should be at least the equivalent if not stronger than the power of prayer.

I guess the question is, how do you know that it works beyond your own, and the practitioners own subjectivity? Or is it pretty much like prayer, where you do it and have faith that the appropriate outcome will occur, regardless of what seems best at the time.

To be honset, I'm so scattered with my efforts I can only offer what I know. I don't feel great about flying around scanning internet articles on this and "proving" anything. I don't have high respect for scientific double-blind studies because they have been performed on drugs now taken off the market. They have fallen in great favor of the placebo affect, however I don't see doctors prescribing placebos - I see them prescribing designer drugs you or your family will have to see a lawyer about later. I have about as much respect for these as I do for the countless charlatans claiming to tell your future, cure your cancer with psychic surgery, knock you out with chi balls or sell you oceanfront property in Arizona.

It is not easy to find good, real Reiki practitioners and I wish ANYONE looking for one the luck of the world.

Peace.

Hey, let's face it; there is a lot of money in drugs. Not so much in Reiki.

Although I hear what empty hands is saying regarding this, I don't completely agree because ineffective drugs often get pushed through the marketplace, and the studies supporting them often lack in evidence. However, they do have studies, and they do have to follow a standard. Problem with drug standards isn't so much that the drugs don't get results, it is that often the results aren't as good or any better then a non-pharmacutical solution, and they aren't without side effects that can sometimes be severe. But I digress...

You talk about "real Reiki" practitioners and charlatans. So I guess my question is, how does someone know the difference? How can we separate the "real" from "fake." I know I have my biases, and I am not trying to gang up on you because of those; I am just curious about that part of it is all...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ginseng.

From a TCM POV Ginseng should not be taken anywhere near as much as people in the US take it. It is not as "safe" as people believe.

Many illnesses are caused by heat and people run off gets some Ginseng and think it will make them ALL better.

Ginseng is VERY good at causing heat so illness caused by heat then take ginseng and add more heat... not a good thing.

Sorry for

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ginseng.

From a TCM POV Ginseng should not be taken anywhere near as much as people in the US take it. It is not as "safe" as people believe.

Many illnesses are caused by heat and people run off gets some Ginseng and think it will make them ALL better.

Ginseng is VERY good at causing heat so illness caused by heat then take ginseng and add more heat... not a good thing.

Sorry for the off Reiki post but I felt that should be addressed

 

[Bob Hubbard]

C - You just summed up my "who's the higher ranked 1st degree black belt argument" dude. ROFL!

Xue - No worries. Was a good point.

 

[Cruentus]

C - You just summed up my "who's the higher ranked 1st degree black belt argument" dude. ROFL!

lol... very true. Unfortunatily the problems that seem to occur in the Reiki world mirror what we see in some martial arts circles...

For the record:

Shesulsa and others, I am not slamming on your beliefs or anything. If you practice that sort of thing that is cool with me. I am just stating where I see the problems (that I think you will agree with) and trying to understand. Every belief system where people get involved has flaws at an organizational/social level at the very least. For example, I am Christian; though I am contemplative, various churches and such aren't without problems. So the fact that there are weirdo's out there doing Reiki, that doesn't mean that I think that everyone who does it is a weirdo anymore then I would hope that people don't think I am a weirdo because there are weirdo Christians out there.

Also, I find that Reiki (from things practitioners have said) blurs the line between a belief system and a holistic health system. That is where I have trouble understanding. I have no problems with the belief system part of it. When it is touted as a holistic health system, that is where I have problems; because a holistic health or any system that claims to cure or heal needs to be able to demonstrate that it can objectively do so for it to be valid.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

2 words : Faith Healer.
See Also: Jim Baker, TV Preacher, Oral Roberts, etc.

Ok, seriously, coming from a "thinking this through a bit" perspective.... IF things like Reiki and other "life force effecting" things work we simply don't have a means to measure it. We don't have the Star Trek bio-bed, nor can we see "hit points" to tell how much life we have or are transfering.

We can however measure the results. Some of which, will be placebo effects.
Then again, did the asprin eliminate my headache, or did it go away on it's own?
If I get a cold, I'm sick for 7 days, however if I take my cold medicine I'[m only sick for a week. Oh, wait.....

If I lay hands on some one and believe I am transfering energy, or manipulating theirs...maybe I am, maybe I'm not. If I think and they think that this is happening and their headache goes away...maybe I did it..and maybe they did it.and maybe it just went away.

So, if I do this 100 times, and I seem to be successful most of the time....it might mean I have a power. Or not. Because, it's not like messuring watts or water.

I've seen the same arguments against used for accupuncture, qigong, qi/ki/chi etc.

I've also seen and experienced some....interesting things, which I can't explain and have had others verify that tell me "there may be something to all this".

It's not a "I want reiki to be real". I don't care. If it's debunked, it's debunked. It's but one of numerous similar ideas out there that I have the same questions, interest, etc in. Maybe it is real, but most of the folks doing it simply (for whatever reason) don't have the real gift, something I recall hearing about Qigong as well.

That all make sense?

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I think the problem as I said before with studies is the defination of the word. If we are to look at the characters literally a study would most likely not find anything. If we define it as some sort of mystical energy than again through wrong defination does the study most likely find nothing.
And that contributes to alot of studies of searching for mystic universal life energy. If are to place the defination of these Asian words to mean such things than by all means Western studies will fail to prove it's existance. The problem also lays in what type of Qi, Ki, or Prana we are talking about. Those in old times refered to it as energy if it were Earth or Heaven or Man energy the definations into modern time would be Earth=Geometric energy/Geothermal energy Heaven=Weather conditions
and Man=Bioelectromagnetic energy. Science has already proven these conditions exist so there is no mystery behind it however if we still use the coin term of it as mystic energy than trying to measure it by that defination will result in a failed study.