Instructor hurt me with a pressure point to eye

[angelmuffin]

I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug. He called me over and told me to get him in a bear hug. He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor. I guess his ego needed to prove a point. I was pretty angry afterwards as I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else. I essence, he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang. I wanted to approach him, but did not want to make waives. He is very pig headed at times as it is his way or the highway. How do I approch this? Do I just let it go? It is the following day and my eye still hurts a little. I need sound advise!

 

[Bigshadow]

I hope you feel better soon.

Was he doing that to show off, or was he doing that to demonstrate a possible way to get out of it? It could be taken either way. I don't know your instructor, but, based on my own experience, training can sometimes be painful. Generally, not enough to be injured, though. Of course if it was purely ego, then that would not be a good example to set for the students.

One other thing, regardless of the why, it sounds like it is possible he got carried away with things and went too far.

Just my initial thoughts.

 

[Lisa]

No Instructor should ever do that to a student to prove a point. The Instructor should be the responsible one in the class because he should be well aware of how damaging what he is teaching can be. I am apalled that he would do this to one of his students.

You say that he is pigheaded, I say that what he did is abuse and shouldn't be tolerated. Has he done anything like this to anyone else? Have you had any similar experiences? If so, leave the school. Why would you give your money to someone with an ego so large that he needs to hurt you to prove a point. Your vision is not something to play around with.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Training can definately be painful. If your instructor however did put his/her finger into your eye socket that is pretty rough training in my opinion. It is definately an effective technique but unfortunately it is one of those techniques that can do alot of damage with minimal effort. I do not put fingers, etc. in eye sockets when demonstrating a technique. In my opinion it is just to dangerous. I would talk to your instructor and try and work things out. Good luck and I hope that you feel better soon.

 

[MJS]

I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug. He called me over and told me to get him in a bear hug. He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor. I guess his ego needed to prove a point. I was pretty angry afterwards as I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else. I essence, he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang. I wanted to approach him, but did not want to make waives. He is very pig headed at times as it is his way or the highway. How do I approch this? Do I just let it go? It is the following day and my eye still hurts a little. I need sound advise!

You know your inst. better than any of us, so you'd be the best one to know if it was intentional or not. Injuries are a part of training, however, there is a big difference between an accident and intentional.

If your eye is still bothering you, I'd have it looked at by an eye doctor. You only get one set of eyes. As for your inst...I'd talk to him one on one about it. If this is going to be a common practice with him, and he has that 'my way or the highway' attitude, then I'd hit the highway.

Good luck!

Mike

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Sounds like a few things are going on here.

First, no instructor EVER has the right to hurt a student - PERIOD. If the student is that much of a problem, they should be talked to or asked to leave.

After my experiences with being hurt on purpose for "training" I would say leave.

However, I will temper that by saying that maybe you are going overboard in your own training. If you are good at grappling, great, but if you are making it impossible for other students to TRAIN by being a showoff, maybe you have an attitude problem you need to check yourself.

Training is about everyone getting better - and having someone who is strong in one area can be great for others to train with - but when strength in an area becomes too "showy" its just a pain for everyone else to train with that person.

Overall, two lessons to be learned here, but the instructor sounds like they have a real communication problem. I would be seriously concerned about progression at a dojang like this because the instructor never wants to be "dethroned" by one of his own students. Ultimately, have students better than me is my goal at my dojang...

On the subject of pain in training, yes, training should make you sore, but should never hurt you - we are learning as art of defense, if you are crippled in training, you are useless to yourself and others in a time of real need.

 

[exile]

Hello all,
...maybe you are going overboard in your own training. If you are good at grappling, great, but if you are making it impossible for other students to TRAIN by being a showoff, maybe you have an attitude problem you need to check yourself.

Iron Ox---I agree with your post in general, but I don't think there's anything in the initial post in the thread to indicate that this student is a showoff. Being good, and knowing it, doesn't mean that you have an attitude problem---but even if there were such a problem, it couldn't possibly justify the use of a dangerous technique in training as a substitute for a candid chat with the student about the hypothetical problem.

If eye attacks are going to be part of training, then some substitute for an actual damaging strike should be part of the training code. Iain Abernethy, in his book Bunkai-Jutsu on combat-effective kata bunkai, discusses the streetfight-oriented `sparring' methods he uses in his dojo to get people to learn and automatically implement the rather nasty applications concealed within karate patterns. They go pretty much all out there, but some things are off limits---actual groin strikes, hard blows to the throat, neck twists and eye strike---stuff that can easily be permanently damaging or, with a bit more force, lethal. IA's method uses a system of light touches to these ultra-vital areas: if you can connect lightly with any of them, that translates into an absolute finish to the fight, simply because a more forceful application in a real physical conflict is going to end it---and maybe your assailant---then and there.

This approach seems to me to make a lot of sense, as a way to maximize the realism of combat without actually permanently damaging, crippling or killing anyone. A very hard `block' which is actually a strike to the upper arm may be very painful, but likely only temporarily incapacitating, and if someone wants training for realistic combat situations, it's probably a price s/he'll be willing to pay. But with eyes, etc., there should be some substitute for actual damage. If this instructor carried out that eye strike deliberately, absolutely nothing can excuse it. And if it was accidental... well, I'd say there's a major technical problem on the instructor's part.

 

[Drac]

I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug. He called me over and told me to get him in a bear hug. He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor. I guess his ego needed to prove a point. I was pretty angry afterwards as I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else. I essence, he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang. I wanted to approach him, but did not want to make waives. He is very pig headed at times as it is his way or the highway. How do I approch this? Do I just let it go? It is the following day and my eye still hurts a little. I need sound advise!

That is WRONG on so many levels..I've been thrumped around pretty good in training , but NO Sensei, Sifu, Master etc...etc.. ever jamed a finger in my eyes UNLESS it was an accident..

 

[angelmuffin]

"maybe you have an attitude problem you need to check yourself.

Training is about everyone getting better - and having someone who is strong in one area can be great for others to train with - but when strength in an area becomes too "showy" its just a pain for everyone else to train with that person."

I have no attitude problem at all. He asked me to place him in a bear hug. I have seen him hurt other people in different ways, ie. strong ti kicks to a red belt, but this is the first time he did an eye jam that I know of. I will speak to him today and post HIS response on this board. I am goin to explain to him how he hurt me and ask what his intent was. If I do not like his attitude or response, I will leave his Do jang. My eyes are too important. I train hard and fair and never excessive. This is his responsibiltiy and actions, not mine.

 

[shesulsa]

1. There's no way I can know everything about your situation to give you a qualified answer. Some Korean masters are known for off-the-chart training. What other things does he demonstrate that indicate to you this was nothing more than an ego boost?

2. Try and block next time.

*edit*

I just read your response which was posted while I was typing this. Can't hurt to ask, but keep your guard up.

 

[Xue Sheng]

He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor.

What he did was wrong.

I agree with Drac, I have had instructors throw me around, kick, punch and joint lock me and sometime that hurts, it is all part of training. But I have NEVER had any poke me in the eye unless it was by accident.

 

[Jade Tigress]

No Instructor should ever do that to a student to prove a point. The Instructor should be the responsible one in the class because he should be well aware of how damaging what he is teaching can be. I am apalled that he would do this to one of his students.

You say that he is pigheaded, I say that what he did is abuse and shouldn't be tolerated. Has he done anything like this to anyone else? Have you had any similar experiences? If so, leave the school. Why would you give your money to someone with an ego so large that he needs to hurt you to prove a point. Your vision is not something to play around with.

I'm with Lisa on this. Get your eye checked by a doctor. If you decide to stay, and similar things continue to happen, with you getting injured, you will have a record of it in the form of medical records. An instructor should know and demonstrate control.

 

[DavidCC]

I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug. He called me over and told me to get him in a bear hug. He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor. I guess his ego needed to prove a point. I was pretty angry afterwards as I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else. I essence, he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang. I wanted to approach him, but did not want to make waives. He is very pig headed at times as it is his way or the highway. How do I approch this? Do I just let it go? It is the following day and my eye still hurts a little. I need sound advise!

Did he just poke you in the eye without a word to the class and then walk away?

or was he teaching and demonstrating?

There is not nearly enough info in your post to make a valid judgement. although that has not stopped some from doing so LOL.

 

[angelmuffin]

Did he just poke you in the eye without a word to the class and then walk away?

or was he teaching and demonstrating?

There is not nearly enough info in your post to make a valid judgement. although that has not stopped some from doing so LOL.

He was teaching the one student I out in the bear hug as how to get out of the bear hug. He did demonstrate on me, on my eye. I am seeing him today to discuss this.

 

[DngrRuss]

First of all, accidents happen. However, they should happen less and less when seniors and instructors are involved. They should be the very defination of control and, especially when they are demonstrating a technique against a reasonably compliant partner, should go slow and precise to show just how the technique functions.

Second, if you can poke an eye, you can simply touch an eye. I have done the same thing to students (oddly enough, those who wrestle in jr. high and high school and get a bit of an ego) and impress upon them that their eyes, lips, faces, et.al. are all at risk against someone fighting for their safety, not for points. I agree with Iron Ox above, mostly. I do think that an instructor has a responsibility to inflict a degree of pain on his students, so that that student learns as much as he can about the nature of that specific pain, as well as pain in general- thus the old saying, "cry in training, laugh in combat." But, there is a big difference between pain and injury. Eyes specifically should be off limits with any pain or submission technique. You can learn how to do those techniques without inflicting pain and injury on your partner, as opposed to an armbar for example.

In short, I think your instructor either was careless or an ***. Either way, I would reconsider training with him. You would be better off finding and instructor who gets his jollies watching his students succeed, rather than get his ego twisted and feel the need to prove a point to said student.

Now, of course, this opinion is based solely on your statement. I do know that there are 2 sides to every story. I also agree with Iron Ox that you should honestly examine your behavior to see if there was anything you did to invoke this action from your instructor. But even if you were being a complete jerk, there is no excuse for injuring a student and specifically injuring an eye.

 

[iron_ox]

I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug.

Hello all,

Sorry if the last post came off vague.

First and foremost, instructors should NEVER hurt students for any reason.

OK, that said.

Now, reading the above quote from the first post, that is attitude, and again, I didn't say it was a bad thing, but some people don't like to be challenged in "their house" - so maybe part of what happened is stemming from this.

You say you train hard, and fair, then fair enough. Your initial sentence was very self important - eg attitude, hence my response, so, before you get frustrated with a response based on what YOU wrote, read everything again.

Hope all gets straightened out with your instructor - but again, in my opinion, unless the act was purely an accident, leaving that dojang is the best option.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug. He called me over and told me to get him in a bear hug. He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor. I guess his ego needed to prove a point. I was pretty angry afterwards as I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else. I essence, he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang. I wanted to approach him, but did not want to make waives. He is very pig headed at times as it is his way or the highway. How do I approch this? Do I just let it go? It is the following day and my eye still hurts a little. I need sound advise!

Let it go. I detect some attitude in your post. He was only pointing out you have long way to go. You can still see, and now have a counter in your arsenal you know works against over confident people.
Sean

 

[Robert Lee]

Did you offere resistance to his eye poke at first perhaps he applied more pressure showing it could still work with resistance. Was this a first in some like this by the instructor. I feel in the M A you will get the bumps and bruises if you want to learn Also as an instructor. I have been injured many times by students because You work with them And they make mistakes to. You might tell him your eye is still sore And see how he responds.

 

[bobster_ice]

I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug. He called me over and told me to get him in a bear hug. He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor. I guess his ego needed to prove a point. I was pretty angry afterwards as I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else. I essence, he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang. I wanted to approach him, but did not want to make waives. He is very pig headed at times as it is his way or the highway. How do I approch this? Do I just let it go? It is the following day and my eye still hurts a little. I need sound advise!

I dont think poking people in the eye is aloud during martial arts training.

 

[angelmuffin]

I just got back from a lengthy discussion with him. I think we got through to one another about our feelings and concerns. He was very concerned and said if he felt he had hurt me, he apoligized. It was very genuine. He did stand behind the fact that he knew exactly what he was doing and knew he would not injury me. I then explained how he had not done it to anyone else, and he believed that I had the ability to endure it, but he did understand and should genuine concern. We both agreed that this was a growing experience for both of us and I will continue to train with him as I believe he is in fact, a difficult teacher, yet a very good one.