Inequality in American Income ... Something Wrong Here.

[Omar B]

Without a job as a CEO or some other high flying executive, you can work as hard as you like , 25 hours a day and invest 110% of what you earn. You can invest in the best companies or be guided by the best advisers. You will still be in the bottom of the pile.

These guys at the top are earning 100 - 500 times or more what the workers are! Worse still, when they F*#& up and are pushed out they take millions with them. These are the guys with the huge estates and the big yachts, not the average citizen. These are the guys who often feather their own nests at the expense of others.

How much payout would you get if you were fired?

My father works for a company (ALCOA) but he's a scientist and he's quite well off. He's no CEO, just educated, is good at what he does, works hard and makes smart investments. My step father's an economist, he also works for someone and is quite well off.

Guys working 500 times of whatever the average worker ant does is entitled to it. A janitor cannot walk into Bill Gates's office and does what he does, or T Boone Picken's office or I could go on. In most cases the people at the top are there for a reason, hard work, smart moves, a good idea. A person's earning potential because of what they are capable of is just that. The more specialized your skill is, usually the more earning potential you have.

 

[Sukerkin]

:Gives up:

:tears up degree as clearly everyone knows better:

 

[K-man]

So you jealous is that it? Because that's what it sounds like.
I work a normal job earn a normal salary. Have a wife and 4 kids. Im def not rich but IM happy I could care less what MR. CEO has or where he lives. In fact I'm happy for MR. CEO because MR. CEO signs the pay checks for ALOT of people. You want a nice house and a Nice boat GO EARN it and stop worrying about what MR. CEO has.

And you sir are an just plain ignorant. You insult me but know nothing about me.
I retired over 10 years ago with enough assets to last me for the rest of my life. I worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for years and I invested what I could save into income producing assets that would provide for me forever if I could live that long. I went without holidays for years. How dare you tell me "GO EARN IT". I did!

I have a nice house. I have a wife and six kids who all were put through private schools and are out doing their own thing. I don't have a boat because I don't want a boat. I have a nice aeroplane because I enjoy flying. I also have great health so I can enjoy life and I am young enough to do just that. Why should I be jealous? I am just grateful.

I don't care about Mr CEO either but the debate is about inequity. You can work hard, save hard do all the right things but some of our societies are allowing a wealth gap to develop that will cause great problems in the years ahead.

CoryKS
Well, there you go then. Maybe you should start applying for CEO jobs. Problem solved.

Don't need to mate ... but thanks for the idea.

To be frank, I'm too busy to work. :asian:

 

[Blade96]

You can also get rich by trying not to spend five cents.

Like some of my relatives do. They are close to millionaires because they for example take vacations using air miles (not their own money) when they do visit family they borrow their car, dont rent one, dont get a hotel, (even though they can afford it) and just use off their poorer relatives.

 

[ballen0351]

And you sir are an just plain ignorant. You insult me but know nothing about me.

I wasn't insulting you I was responding to your ignorant post about the big bad evil CEO. I don't know you so I cant insult you this is after all the internet.

I retired over 10 years ago with enough assets to last me for the rest of my life. I worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for years and I invested what I could save into income producing assets that would provide for me forever if I could live that long. I went without holidays for years. How dare you tell me "GO EARN IT". I did!

I have a nice house. I have a wife and six kids who all were put through private schools and are out doing their own thing. I don't have a boat because I don't want a boat. I have a nice aeroplane because I enjoy flying. I also have great health so I can enjoy life and I am young enough to do just that. Why should I be jealous? I am just grateful.

then why are you crying about the big fancy boat the CEO has? He earned it hes allowed to have it. Your entire post was about the big bad CEO and all the nice things he has. He has it because shareholders and investors decided he deserves it. So of course hes going to make way more then his employees hes the boss. I dont see people crying when George Clooney makes 25 mil on a movie deal but then again hes a left wing looney toon so its ok. Im glad you have all the nice things in life that what life is about you seem comfortable so why are you so bitter about the rich CEO? Do you believe everyone should make what the CEO makes?

I don't care about Mr CEO either but the debate is about inequity. You can work hard, save hard do all the right things but some of our societies are allowing a wealth gap to develop that will cause great problems in the years ahead.

The only problems from the wealth gap will come from Jealousy. People cant just be happy with what they have they always want what the other guy has. Oh his car is nicer, oh his house is bigger, oh he has a plane, but instead of working towards it they would rather cry about it and demand the Govt take it away from them split it among the people. I don't feel anyone is better then me so if you have something then I too can have it if I really choose to work for it.

 

[ballen0351]

:Gives up:

:tears up degree as clearly everyone knows better:

So whats your solution since you have studied this topic?

 

[Sukerkin]

There really isn't one now - it's too far down the road (which is what I said a while ago in this thread).

EDIT: Well, there are things that could be done but they wont be as the vested interests with the resources to do it are the ones that would suffer if they did.

The system has destabalised (thanks in large part to the financial services sector) and is spiraling out of control - which is how you get certain corporations making record profits in the middle of a recession where 'real' people are suffering rather badly.

I can't speak to America's situation at the micro-economic level as all I have to go on these days is what I read here and apparently everything is rosy.

At the macro-economic level, when debt approaches GDP you have a serious problem. It's the same over here in Britain where personal debt hovers around that bar too.

My only debt is my mortgage but that alone consumes more than 50% of my income, despite the fact that my missus and I sold two houses to buy this one with a relatively small mortagage of £90K (which I shall be paying off until the day I retire). I have more letters after my name than are in it, perform a vital service to my countries infrastructure in a job that very few people can actually do, don't live extravagantly and am still unable to save for my old age as day to day living costs consume it all.

What people are focussing on is their own micro-economic experiences rather than the macro-economic forces that actually determine what is going on.

You can work as hard as you like, be as clever as you like and do as well as you like and unless you are ushered in to the circle of the One Percenters it makes not much difference. It does to you clearly, as being a millionaire makes paying the electricity bill easier - but it does not affect the underlying trend of wealth being sucked up to the top of the pyramid and staying there.

Even Friedman, the author of the economic school of thought that echoes behind the words of most posters here, in the end did a 'deathbed recantation' of his theory because it just doesn't work.

All you can do is hold on and hope that you survive - maybe the Chinese will be kind masters when the West's power evaporates (not as farcical as all that to be truthful)?

 

[ballen0351]

At the macro-economic level, when debt approaches GDP you have a serious problem. It's the same over here in Britain where personal debt hovers around that bar too.

Right which is being said now here we need to stop spending and start paying down the debt. Now we will just have to see if the politicians really do it.

My only debt is my mortgage but that alone consumes more than 50% of my income, despite the fact that my missus and I sold two houses to buy this one with a relatively small mortagage of £90K (which I shall be paying off until the day I retire). I have more letters after my name than are in it, perform a vital service to my countries infrastructure in a job that very few people can actually do, don't live extravagantly and am still unable to save for my old age as day to day living costs consume it all.

My only dept is my house and my wife's car which we will have paid off in 2 months. So if you have all these degrees and letters after your name and do such a vital job how are you not able to save for retirement. There has to be some things you can adjust to start and if not you may want to look for a better paying job with all the training you have you should be living comfortably. Maybe not the top 1% but comfortably.

You can work as hard as you like, be as clever as you like and do as well as you like and unless you are ushered in to the circle of the One Percenters it makes not much difference. It does to you clearly, as being a millionaire makes paying the electricity bill easier - but it does not affect the underlying trend of wealth being sucked up to the top of the pyramid and staying there.

why do you feel you need to be the top 1%. Im happy where I am near the middle of the pack. I dont need to be a millionaire to pay my bills because I dont live like a millionaire. I bought a modest house I knew I could afford, I drive a 1979 Jeep because #1 it didnt cost alot and #2 its just cool. My wife has the minivan. Our kids are healthy, happy, clothed, play sports, all the good stuff. I just dont get why everyone want to compare themselves to the Bill Gates of the world.

All you can do is hold on and hope that you survive - maybe the Chinese will be kind masters when the West's power evaporates (not as farcical as all that to be truthful)?

Which is why Obama needs to STOP spending and start paying down the debt.

 

[Sukerkin]

As I said, I give up trying to explain. The economic situation is dire and unlikely to get much better for a long time - believe it or not, I have a better than median standard of living for my region of the country. Lord knows how those people earning less are coping, particularly if they are embroiled with credit card debt too.

You can only point and shout "Iceberg!" - if people react by going "Why yes, some ice in my G&T would be fabulous" then they don't see the problem.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Suk,
Let me see if I can be clearer in my view here.

It doesn't matter how much other people make or don't make.

There is plenty out there for everyone, and no one needs to really "give up" so that others can 'have'.

There is an infinite supply of wealth out there for people to tap into.

People 'tap into it' in direct proportion to their mindsets, efforts, and motivations.
(This is why lazy people tend to be poor, and rich people busy. Exceptions do occur yes.)

If I want to have more money, I need to offer/produce something to draw more money to me. Case in point, if I want more money, I need to shoot more paid gigs, build more paid websites, sell more ads on MT, or convince more people to become Supporting Members. All of that requires I do more work, put in more time, and put in more effort. If I don't, my income won't grow, and might just shrink.

The inequity of my income compared to Bill Gates doesn't bother me.
The fact that my studio might never be as big as Sears Portrait doesn't bother me either. (ok, not much, lol)

Now, when your income's cut, you have options.
-cut back. Do you really need 3 cell phones, a land line AND Aol?
-Liquidate. Sell off that surplus junk.
-get a 2nd job. Yes, a 2nd job, they exist and I know people who when others can't find 1, found 3 and in 1 case 4.
-start a business of your own. There are plenty of low cost start up ideas out there that a hard working, motivated person can run with.
-become a highway man, rob a bank or sell your kids to a rich Frenchman. (ok, being silly here.)

Why do you think I ran a hosting business, a design business, a consulting business, several communities and now a photography business, while occasionally doing stints at McDonalds, and a mall photo studio, and cut grass and washed cars on occasion?
Each bit, got me a little bit, now I live ok, despite not being 'rich'.

 

[Steve]

Ultimately the question I always have to ask after listening to the problem is "What do you want me to do about it?" I am not aware of any answer that doesn't involve me giving up more of my income to someone else. I don't see why I should. And no explanation I've heard to date is convincing to me.

Sometimes, the answer is that others should shoulder more of a burden and give you back more of what you've earned.

 

[Ken Morgan]

The economic difficulties the western democracies,(excluding the Germans) are facing right now, are our own damn fault.

We want our stores to provide inexpensive products, so we “force” companies to buy the products they sell to us from businesses running in Japan, then Hong Kong then Taiwan and now China/India/Pakistan. When we do that, we cut our own throats, our neighbours and the guy two provinces/states over, because he doesn’t have a job anymore. Without a job, he can’t buy products either. Perpetual cycle.

Also those who have pensions, or stocks demand X return on investment or they move their funds else where, this money is invested in the same companies that have abandoned our countries because they can make a better return overseas, and then ship the products back here. This investment in foreign countries have made these recipient countries no longer producers of dollar store items, but high end, high quality goods. Competition is a ***** when you’re getting your *** kicked.

Manufacturing makes up a low part of our economies now, but this was where the good paying jobs were, that money paid for cars, furniture and other items, now the jobs we get can barely pay the rent.

All through this deindustrialization taxes and spending by governments has stayed essentially the same, or increased. Hence huge debts and deficits. To blame the current PM or President is plain stupid, this started 40 years ago.

My Grandfather was regular British army, 16 years, wounded in WW1. After he came home, he had a small pension, had three of four fields of hay and grain, had a boxing school, had a couple of houses he rented out and delivered bread daily for 25 years. This is what we are going back to folks. Multiple jobs until you die, because you have to, if you want your children and grandchildren to have a better life then you do now.

 

[Steve]

The economic difficulties the western democracies,(excluding the Germans) are facing right now, are our own damn fault.

We want our stores to provide inexpensive products, so we “force” companies to buy the products they sell to us from businesses running in Japan, then Hong Kong then Taiwan and now China/India/Pakistan. When we do that, we cut our own throats, our neighbours and the guy two provinces/states over, because he doesn’t have a job anymore. Without a job, he can’t buy products either. Perpetual cycle.

Also those who have pensions, or stocks demand X return on investment or they move their funds else where, this money is invested in the same companies that have abandoned our countries because they can make a better return overseas, and then ship the products back here. This investment in foreign countries have made these recipient countries no longer producers of dollar store items, but high end, high quality goods. Competition is a ***** when you’re getting your *** kicked.

Manufacturing makes up a low part of our economies now, but this was where the good paying jobs were, that money paid for cars, furniture and other items, now the jobs we get can barely pay the rent.

All through this deindustrialization taxes and spending by governments has stayed essentially the same, or increased. Hence huge debts and deficits. To blame the current PM or President is plain stupid, this started 40 years ago.

My Grandfather was regular British army, 16 years, wounded in WW1. After he came home, he had a small pension, had three of four fields of hay and grain, had a boxing school, had a couple of houses he rented out and delivered bread daily for 25 years. This is what we are going back to folks. Multiple jobs until you die, because you have to, if you want your children and grandchildren to have a better life then you do now.

It started before that... during the early years of the baby boom, when soldiers returned from WWII, the economy was in a relative boom following the great depression and people had, for the first time in well over a decade, money to burn. That was when the idea of building stuff that would last a lifetime (or longer) started losing ground to the idea of building things that were engineered to fail and the desire to have the latest and greatest was in vogue.

Nowadays, if a TV lasts longer than 5 years or so, it's an irritation because technology has moved beyond it. You want the newer one that has a dial that goes to 11.

 

[ballen0351]

Sometimes, the answer is that others should shoulder more of a burden and give you back more of what you've earned.

They already give back more then their fair share. Top 5% of all wage earners pay over 50% of all taxes. How much more do they need to give?

 

[K-man]

I wasn't insulting you I was responding to your ignorant post about the big bad evil CEO. I don't know you so I cant insult you this is after all the internet.

then why are you crying about the big fancy boat the CEO has? He earned it hes allowed to have it. Your entire post was about the big bad CEO and all the nice things he has. He has it because shareholders and investors decided he deserves it. So of course hes going to make way more then his employees hes the boss. I dont see people crying when George Clooney makes 25 mil on a movie deal but then again hes a left wing looney toon so its ok. Im glad you have all the nice things in life that what life is about you seem comfortable so why are you so bitter about the rich CEO? Do you believe everyone should make what the CEO makes?


The only problems from the wealth gap will come from Jealousy. People cant just be happy with what they have they always want what the other guy has. Oh his car is nicer, oh his house is bigger, oh he has a plane, but instead of working towards it they would rather cry about it and demand the Govt take it away from them split it among the people. I don't feel anyone is better then me so if you have something then I too can have it if I really choose to work for it.

You not only insulted me, you insulted my intelligence and the intelligence of the other members of the forum.

My words "Big yachts" your words "crying about the big fancy boat".
My word "CEO" your words "Big bad evil CEO" and "rich CEO".
My words " ........." your words ".. demand the Govt take it away from them split it among the people". Did I really suggest that?

Sorry, where was my post ignorant?

And, yes I used the CEO as an example of the excesses in the community. If you are telling me that a guy like (Sol Trujillo you can Google him) can come in on a huge package, stuff one of Australia's biggest companies and leave with a $14,000,000 golden handshake to get rid of him, is entitled to that sort of treatment, then it is no wonder this inequality is allowed to persist.
I can understand that you reckon your work is worth about 1% or less of their's but that is your call. I believe for the rest of the population it in iniquetous.

I am more than happy with my lot but I feel sorry for those working hard and still struggling to make ends meet.

Sorry, where am I bitter?

I'm not bitter, I'm just putting forward an opinion on Caver's post.

You want a nice house and a Nice boat GO EARN it and stop worrying about what MR. CEO has.

That's respectful!

If you believe that jealousy is the only problem with the wealth gap then that makes you part of the problem. Sorry, unless the populace can say enough is enough you will end up with a discordant society as has happened in some other parts of the world such as Egypt.

I have included my posts so that all can see just where I am ignorant and bitter.

We have a similar problem in Australia. The guys at the big end of town are pulling huge salaries in the millions of dollars pa and the workers on about $30K. Houses now average over $500k in our cities and about $200k+ if you go to the country. With prices going up, older people are getting even further behind in they are relying on social security. Our top 10% own 45% of the wealth, the bottom 40% have about 5%. Even self funded retirees are struggling.

Just don't ask me for the solution. I'm not that bright. :asian:

Without a job as a CEO or some other high flying executive, you can work as hard as you like , 25 hours a day and invest 110% of what you earn. You can invest in the best companies or be guided by the best advisers. You will still be in the bottom of the pile.

These guys at the top are earning 100 - 500 times or more what the workers are! Worse still, when they F*#& up and are pushed out they take millions with them. These are the guys with the huge estates and the big yachts, not the average citizen. These are the guys who often feather their own nests at the expense of others.

How much payout would you get if you were fired?

I have included your response as a reference.

So you jealous is that it? Because that's what it sounds like.
I work a normal job earn a normal salary. Have a wife and 4 kids. Im def not rich but IM happy I could care less what MR. CEO has or where he lives. In fact I'm happy for MR. CEO because MR. CEO signs the pay checks for ALOT of people. You want a nice house and a Nice boat GO EARN it and stop worrying about what MR. CEO has.

I'll let others judge the merit of the posts. In the meantime I shall retire to the bleachers with my esteemed colleague Superkin and reiterate his inciteful post.

:Gives up:

:tears up degree as clearly everyone knows better:

What he said!
:asian:

 

[Bruno@MT]

To the OP: I would fall down on my knees and weep from joy if I could buy gas for 3.14 dollars per gallon. Seriously. Gasoline is 7.9 dollars per gallon for regular 95 Octane.
Diesel is a bit cheaper, and probably comes out at 6.5 dollars per gallon.
If the difference between 2.5 $/Gallon and 3.2 $ gallon is keeping you from finding a job, you're doing something wrong.


Btw, I don't think the problem is jealousy. I worked at a company (as a contractor) where the CEO and the board completely ruined their corporation by wanting to be the biggest, more interested in their stock than in the company. They gambled, and lost it all in the dot com boom. They had to cut and dissolve many of the companies they bought. That board oversaw the biggest 'goodwill writeoff' in history, which basically is like saying they ****ed up to the tune of over 50 Billion dollars.

Even that... fair enough. They were in a position to take that bet, had to make a decision and picked the wrong one.
But then came the slap in the face: after they layed off over 10K people, they awarded themselves a couple hundred million dollar bonuses... for their leadership and vision overseen the 'rescue of the company'.

The same thing still happens in the banking business today.

So tell me.
What is the skill that justifies such pay?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Even that... fair enough. They were in a position to take that bet, had to make a decision and picked the wrong one.
But then came the slap in the face: after they layed off over 10K people, they awarded themselves a couple hundred million dollar bonuses... for their leadership and vision overseen the 'rescue of the company'.

The same thing still happens in the banking business today.

So tell me.
What is the skill that justifies such pay?

Ah, that's the rub. What have such people done to merit such pay? Indeed, they've done little or nothing to merit it. In some cases, they gleefully reward each other for abject failure.

And yet, while pointing this out, one must also ask what is to be done about it? These people you are referring to are executive officers of large corporations. They are paid based on what the board of directors for the corporation wishes to pay them. Are they foolish to pay such huge salaries? I'd say so, in many cases.

I'd also wonder what can be done about it without abrogating the basic principle that private businesses and for-profit publicly-traded corporations can run their business more or less as they see fit, absent any violation of law.

Shall we pass laws regarding obscene wealth or profit or salary? Is there a number beyond which no one is allowed to be paid? Shall we confiscate wealth whenever the number bandied about shocks the public consciousness?

I make an exception in the case of the banks and businesses which received money from the US federal government to bail them out during the recent crisis. I feel that the compensation paid to their executives is indeed the taxpayer's business; but not in most other cases.

Seriously here. I have a friend who is offended by the high wages paid to baseball players these days. He refuses to watch them on television or go to games anymore. I don't blame him, but other than not spending money on them, what would be the proposed solution? They earn hundreds of millions of dollars for playing a game; outrageous! But again, what is the proposed solution to this problem? Take it from them? Cap it so that no one makes an amount of money that offends the general public?

We are shocked when a CEO makes (I won't even say 'earns') 200 or 2000 times more than the average salaried worker at his company. And I agree, it is shocking. I can't imagine what the board of directors must be thinking. But is it the business of the public in a world such as we live in? Do I want to fundamentally change our society so that such abuses cannot happen? Ultimately, I don't, not me. I like the way our society works, for the most part. I don't want restrictive laws passed just so that CEOs and others don't make salaries that I find obscene and offensive. I have to believe that ultimately, companies which foolishly throw money away on worthless executives will suffer the consequences of the marketplace, because this is the economic system in which I live and in which I put my faith. I don't want to live in a heavily-regulated society that tries to correct such abuses by law or by tax or by other form of punishment.

It's obscene, yes. It's also legal. And as much as I find these CEO's to be despicable pieces of human trash in many cases, I also do not want to live in a society which attempts to right their wrongs by force of law.

 

[Bruno@MT]

There is a clear difference with Baseball.
All teams can work themselves up to major league by skill alone.
Player prices are determined on their actual performance. The fact that they get paid such large amounts is due to the fact that the club makes even more based on their performance.
And the playing field is open to all players and all clubs.

I may think it is ridiculous that players earn so much, but the free market has chosen to support that.

Banks otoh are led by people who all know each other, and gladly award each other huge bonuses. Just because they can. Noone has the power to stop them. We also can't do much about it because the playing field is NOT open to all. There is legislation in place that puts up real barriers for those not already on the inside. We could choose not to use banks, but that also means not being able to do much.

Enterprise level boards are similar. They are not subordinate to anyone. One could argue they are subordinate to the stockholders, but as in the company I worked for, the board was more than happy enough to screw the stockholders and give themselves huge bonuses as the stock plummeted in a death spiral.

The problem is that these people are part (through birth, group membership or blind luck) are part of the financial infrastructure of this world, and it is incredibly hard to touch them.

 

[Bruno@MT]

We are shocked when a CEO makes (I won't even say 'earns') 200 or 2000 times more than the average salaried worker at his company. And I agree, it is shocking. I can't imagine what the board of directors must be thinking. But is it the business of the public in a world such as we live in? Do I want to fundamentally change our society so that such abuses cannot happen? Ultimately, I don't, not me. I like the way our society works, for the most part. I don't want restrictive laws passed just so that CEOs and others don't make salaries that I find obscene and offensive. I have to believe that ultimately, companies which foolishly throw money away on worthless executives will suffer the consequences of the marketplace, because this is the economic system in which I live and in which I put my faith. I don't want to live in a heavily-regulated society that tries to correct such abuses by law or by tax or by other form of punishment..

I understand your pov. And it should be true.
However, some genius coined the phrase 'too big to fail'. Large companies will be bailed out with your (and my) tax money. Which they used in part for bonus money

 

[Carol]

I'm not going to touch the subject of CEOs considering my life has been tossed about by a corporate buyout.

As I was making my way out the door after my exit interview, I asked many of my colleagues in a semi-serious manner "There's so much talent in this room. We should start a company!" Everyone (including myself) had the same reaction. Doing what?

Two things bother me.

1. We're told college is about education. Its not. College is about networking. My final exams at UMass Lowell have been as hard as, if not harder, what a friend's daughter had at Yale studying the same material. The difference? UML attracts local folks and isn't known outside of New England. Yale attracts the children of powerful ubergods from around the world. Sure the Ivy League schools have academic rigor. There are good public colleges that are similarly rigorous, at one-quarter the tuition. Students aren't paying for the academic rigor, they are paying for the networking opportunities. Its not what you know, its WHO you know!

2. Skills are taught as skills. If I can get my act together and actually finish my 2nd bachelors, I'll have a BSIT. What did I do for the class? Datacommunications, programming, networking, systems admin, that kind of stuff. Being innovate often requires a good knowledge of business structure and analytics. I'm not convinced my one required MIS class (that I haven't taken yet) will do that.

A company of less than 200 employees in a state that half the country can't even find on a map comes together to create something that grabs a stunning percentage of market share from giants like Motorola and Cisco...yet alone, even alone in small groups, we can't find that entrepreneurial "thing" needed to start our own business.

Ironic, isn't it? That, to me, is the real gap.