In general, how well does TKD stand up to other arts such as:

[MJS]

Our instructor is a small guy, same height, lbs. as me but he has much more upper body strength probably because he is a man. Women aren't built for upper, our base is in our hips down. So grappling, I lose to most guys unless i have faster technque. Not really an equilizer.

TW, I hear ya. I used the example of Helio because he was always a small man. He made mods. to his grappling because of that. I have rolled with quite a few females and they were very good on the ground. Again, I've never tried to steer someone away from their current training, just made the suggestion to look at it as an option..something to add to the bag of tricks!

Equal years trained, I would still bet on the TKD person with the stronger/bigger arsenal of kicks. We have too many people breaking concrete with the instep. How many muay thai do jumpback thru concrete? We train to be light on our feet, moving, its not like we're going to stand there and take hits to our legs. But we aren't super hard conditioned to ring fighting either. Not our bag. TW

Well, everyone is going to have their likes and dislikes. I guess what it comes down to, is whatever works for the individual. No, I havent seen any MT guys kicking wood or concrete. As for the moving and leg kicking, yes, the legs are a prefered target for MT, but they can and do kick to the body and head. Many times they'll time their kick as the other person is also kicking, making their target the supporting leg.

Mike

 

[Marginal]

If you look at the way they block kicks, you'll notice that they're pretty much covered regardless of what kick is coming...front, side, roundhouse.

Ah. So then they don't bother kicking at all 'cause they have developed a perfect defense. Gotcha. No, wait... That's an utterly retarded position to adopt.

Yes, you're right. And its the same concept in Kenpo, TKD, Shotokan, etc. You will get much more power by using your hips, driving the kick, compared to a snappy motion. Watch a roundhouse kick throw by any karate man and a MT man and you will see a difference. Do a little research on MT kicking and you should find what I'm talking about.

*Sigh* I've seen MT kicks. I've done MT kicks. I'm familiar with both motions.

You don't seem to get what I'm saying. I'm not saying that MT kicks are less powerful, or that more is better/worse. I'm simply refusing to dismiss all of TKD's kicks out of hand like you are. (Which seems a silly position to take regardless since you claim to not know anything about TKD... Do you or don't you?)

There are front kick, round kicks, side kicks, etc. in many arts. Its the way they are applied/thrown that makes the difference. And as I, as well as someone else on here has said, what matters is quality not quantity. Who cares if TKD has 40 kicks and MT has 8, what matters is being able to apply them. The same can be said for SD techs. You can know 100 techs or 10 techs. but if you can't apply them when you need to, what good are they?

Well, that's nice to say, especially when I said the same dahaym thing the post before (I just looove thise gritty "hard truths" that are supposed to utterly blindside me... *Sigh*) but come on. This is silly. Now TKD kicks are totally ineffective too? Poor Cal Worsham...

 

[bignick]

That is why side kicks aren't done in Muay Thai and MMA, cause you put yourself in danger by doing them.

any attacks leaves you open for a counter attack...

 

[Disco]

Somebody should tell Joe Lewis that side kicks are not desireable in a fight.

 

[Zepp]

...In general how well does TaeKwonDo stand up to in compitition with other arts such as: Muy Thai, Jujitsu, Judo, Boxing, Wrestling, ect?
I love my art (TKD), and I want it to be as efective as possible.
Even before I was in TKD, I was self practicing my own style when I when I was very little (I was about 5).
I was so inspired by all the Karate movies that I was watching, that I started practicing my own style, Which when I look back on it.. It was very similar to TKD.
And when I finaly joined TKD, I picked up on it very quikely.
TKD is who I am and always will be, but I also want effectiveness.
And I also want confidence in what I teach to the students is effective....

This disscussion has very quickly devolved into the realm of downright silly.

Hwoarang, look, you've been training in TKD for what, 6 years? That should be enough time for you to know what it is you want to do as a martial artist (especially since you have some experience with, and against other styles). The question you should ask yourself is: "Does Tae Kwon Do suit my purposes?"

If it does, then why worry about what you're teaching? It's the responsibility of your students to decide if TKD is right for them.

The UFC is a sport, plain and simple. People who want to be good at a particular sport need to train for that particular sport. TKD does not train you for sports others than maybe Olympic-style TKD. So if MMA/NHB is what you really want to compete in, you'll have to train specificly for it.

If you feel that what you're doing isn't what will best help you defend yourself in a real fight, shop around for something that will. If I know one thing for certain about Tae Kwon Do, it's that no one but yourself can rightly tell you if it's the best art for you.

 

[Hwoarang_tkd26]

Wow!! This is interesting.
Sorry that I don't give much feed back in this thread even though I started it, I'm just enjoying sitting back and reading the discusion.
Please continue.

- Hwoarang_tkd26

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sparring with TKD rules is one thing, streetfighting another, and ring anything goes except the most deadly or harmful, third. Taekwondo has the best kickers in the world, no doubt about it. We are trained by endless repetion, hard targets, speed etc. If we are trained to kick over our heads easily, kicking low is really no problem at all and in fact, soooo much easier. Our instructor trains us for street fighting, fighting dirty for self defense. But that is not ring fighting. We don't do grappling on the floor. We probably have just a few moves if we do get to the floor. Our strength is reacting when someone gets in our distance range. So, yeah, if you were ring fighting, not self defense, get some grappling cross-training. The rest, is taken care of with regular Taekwondo training. But as a smaller person, I know, that grappling would never be my strong point. I would rather train to my strength-kick and punch and have just a few grappling methods than start weight training as a woman. TW

This is a perfect post to illistrate that TKD isn't so much lacking, its that practice is concentrated to one range. Many of the things learned in TKD will tranlate just fine at other ranges; however, this type of training is limited to Black belt classes. And how much time gets spent in black belt class on fighting at the three inside ranges? Probably not that much. The idea here, as with any art, is to take your self out of your comfort zone as often as possible to get more and more challanges within your comfort zone. As for grappling, its not about weight training its about keeping your knees between you and your oponent. The only way to get good at this is to roll around with people and work the basic escapes over and over; no weight training involved really.
Sean

 

[Hwoarang_tkd26]

This disscussion has very quickly devolved into the realm of downright silly.

Hwoarang, look, you've been training in TKD for what, 6 years? That should be enough time for you to know what it is you want to do as a martial artist (especially since you have some experience with, and against other styles). The question you should ask yourself is: "Does Tae Kwon Do suit my purposes?"

If it does, then why worry about what you're teaching? It's the responsibility of your students to decide if TKD is right for them.

The UFC is a sport, plain and simple. People who want to be good at a particular sport need to train for that particular sport. TKD does not train you for sports others than maybe Olympic-style TKD. So if MMA/NHB is what you really want to compete in, you'll have to train specificly for it.

If you feel that what you're doing isn't what will best help you defend yourself in a real fight, shop around for something that will. If I know one thing for certain about Tae Kwon Do, it's that no one but yourself can rightly tell you if it's the best art for you.

Now wait just a second now, dont get me wrong, I know exactly were I stand with my skills.
I have had great success with my skills and yes TKD is right for me, it's just that... well it's just the fact that I have lately caught myself second guessing my training in it, and was just seeking other's thoughts for comfort, strengh, and contentment so I can once again feel 100% confident in my training and instruction.
And you are right, it is up to the students if TKD is right for them.
I know for the most part I can take care of myself, it's not me so much that I'm concerned about, it's the students, I hope the they are applying the techniques that they have been tought, in there own unique way that will help them whenever they may need it.(I feel that everyone must do that in order to find out what works best for them)
That is all. Thank you all for your replies and knowledge it has helped emmensely.

- Hwoarang_tkd26

 

[TigerWoman]

This is a perfect post to illistrate that TKD isn't so much lacking, its that practice is concentrated to one range. Many of the things learned in TKD will tranlate just fine at other ranges; however, this type of training is limited to Black belt classes. And how much time gets spent in black belt class on fighting at the three inside ranges? Probably not that much. The idea here, as with any art, is to take your self out of your comfort zone as often as possible to get more and more challanges within your comfort zone. As for grappling, its not about weight training its about keeping your knees between you and your oponent. The only way to get good at this is to roll around with people and work the basic escapes over and over; no weight training involved really.
Sean

I said that our strength is reacting when someone gets in our distance range...that is a strength of being comfortable at that range to do alot of technique but technique is also used at close range as well such as hand, crescents, jump back, and even then it doesn't take much to go back a little to do a spinning head shot. And we are capable of doing it without rules, eye gouges, elbows, locks, knee strikes, sweeps, groin shots etc.

We don't have a black belt class. Everybody spars, white on up. Self defense is separate from sparring but is soft contact. Sparring is with rules but is hard contact. Point taken about grappling, we need to be able to do some grappling. Too much material in our traditional program to learn that in addition, under black. That's 3 1/2-4 yrs. to get to rec. black. We haven't had enough of grappling- just a few moves. I would like more but I seldom get my requests. Then trad. TKD masters usually aren't trained that way either. Ours just brings in bits and pieces from other arts. TW

 

[MJS]

Ah. So then they don't bother kicking at all 'cause they have developed a perfect defense. Gotcha. No, wait... That's an utterly retarded position to adopt.

What the heck are you talking about dude?? Where did I say that they don't bother to kick?? As for the defense, you stated in post #10 that the Thai fighters throw the same kick as TKD and that the Thai fighters have a problem defending side kicks. It was said by me and A. Green in post #20 that the side and front kicks are coming in from the same angle. Therefore, its going to be the same defense.

*Sigh* I've seen MT kicks. I've done MT kicks. I'm familiar with both motions.

And I as well. If you fail to see a difference, well sir, I'm afraid I can't help you. While I have not trained in TKD, I have seen TKD kicks, and I have trained with guys who have done TKD.

You don't seem to get what I'm saying. I'm not saying that MT kicks are less powerful, or that more is better/worse. I'm simply refusing to dismiss all of TKD's kicks out of hand like you are. (Which seems a silly position to take regardless since you claim to not know anything about TKD... Do you or don't you?)

Well, unless I missed it, please go back and show me where I said that TKD kicks, Shotokan, etc. were not effective. I simply said that you're going to get better power. I don't know about you, but if I'm going to throw something, I want it to be as powerful as it can be. That being said, if I was going to kick, and had the choice between throwing a kick with Kenpo concepts or Thai concepts, I'll choose Thai.

Well, that's nice to say, especially when I said the same dahaym thing the post before (I just looove thise gritty "hard truths" that are supposed to utterly blindside me... *Sigh*) but come on. This is silly. Now TKD kicks are totally ineffective too? Poor Cal Worsham...

Unfortuantely, yes, we have had these 'talks' before, and as usual, it goes nowhere. I'm gald to see things havent changed! :ultracool If you look at post #9, you'll see that I said this:

While I am not disputing that TKD has some good kicks

In post #10 you said this:

Their front kick's exactly the same

Now, if you have done both, as you claim, you would see the difference.

In #12, I said this:

One difference is that there is not a snappy motion that you find in most karate style kicks. I'm curious, what is the problem that they have with the side kicks?

Keep in mind, like anything, it all comes down to quality over quantity. Just because there may be more kicks in TKD than MT, does not mean that the TKD guy is a better fighter.

If you'll notice, again, I'm simply trying to point out a difference between the 2 kicking styles. You also made ref. that the MT arsenal is limited, almost as if to say that due to that, the TKD fighter would stand a better chance. Again, as a few of us have said, its quality of quantity my friend.

As for Cal Worsham...IMO, I was not impressed at all with that fight with Paul. Very sloppy from both fighters. In addition, considering that TKD has a much more vast arsenal of kicks, what happened to all of them?? I didnt see any spinning back kicks, or jump spinning 360 degree kicks. As for his punching, again, that was poor too. Now, before you say, "Well, if you think you can do better, go do it!" let me say that I have no desire to enter a UFC type event. I do know a few people that enter them on a reg. basis and do pretty well. These events are not the UFC, but more like NAGA.

As for the quote that was supposed to blindside you.. ... was simply posting that to show that it is known that you'll get more power without the snap. Can I throw a snappy RH and get results? Yup. Can I do the same with the shin? Yup.

You'll also notice in post #21, in a reply to TW, I said this.

Well, everyone is going to have their likes and dislikes. I guess what it comes down to, is whatever works for the individual.

On that note, thank you for the conversation. :asian: I also will say, that it has never been my intention to change anyones training. I never said, screw TKD and go do Kenpo. Screw TKD and do BJJ. I'm simply pointing out the different ways that people train. Keeping an open mind, possibly taking someting from someone else and adding to the bag of tricks...those were my intentions. :asian:

Mike

 

[Marginal]

What the heck are you talking about dude?? Where did I say that they don't bother to kick?? As for the defense, you stated in post #10 that the Thai fighters throw the same kick as TKD and that the Thai fighters have a problem defending side kicks. It was said by me and A. Green in post #20 that the side and front kicks are coming in from the same angle. Therefore, its going to be the same defense.

That's nice, but you're essentially saying that any stright line kick can be easily defended against. Doesn't make sense at all.

And I as well. If you fail to see a difference, well sir, I'm afraid I can't help you. While I have not trained in TKD, I have seen TKD kicks, and I have trained with guys who have done TKD.

I'm sorry, but compare a teep kick to a front kick, and they're exactly the same motion. I'm sure the fact it's a MT fighter throwing out the former that makes it useful compared to a TKD guy doing the exact same motion is what really makes one powerful and the other not...

Well, unless I missed it, please go back and show me where I said that TKD kicks, Shotokan, etc. were not effective. I simply said that you're going to get better power. I don't know about you, but if I'm going to throw something, I want it to be as powerful as it can be.

Then the less powerful kicks are undesireable and therefore must be ineffective or else they would not be undesireable.

Now, if you have done both, as you claim, you would see the difference.

Moot since I'm not arguing about which has the most power.

If you'll notice, again, I'm simply trying to point out a difference between the 2 kicking styles. You also made ref. that the MT arsenal is limited, almost as if to say that due to that, the TKD fighter would stand a better chance.

Except I never drew any such conclusion. I said there is one kick that pretty much sets MT apart, the others are either not practiced by them (meaning that MT does not have a more powerful version of that kick) or are practiced int he same manner. If you were paying attention for that matter, I also said that MT relies on a less restrictive set of sparring rules and tends to offer superior conditioning which helps greatly in the application of the techniques they do practice.

Yep, sounds like I came down HARD on MT. :idunno:

As for Cal Worsham...IMO, I was not impressed at all with that fight with Paul. Very sloppy from both fighters. In addition, considering that TKD has a much more vast arsenal of kicks, what happened to all of them??

Right tools for the job at hand, perhaps?

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

As I was reading this thread I found some interesting comments and ideas. I was wondering how many people who have practiced or currently do practice TKD have used it in a real life situation and also how many in a tournament area ?
How did it fend one way or the other ?

I think though that there are too many variables to consider to make a valid comparison on how it stands up to another style. I think it is a great style.
I first started in TKD when i was 7 and stayed in it up to a few years in black. I also remember reading in Mr Hyams book Zen in the Martial Arts that Bruce Lee got his kicks from TKD. I wonder if that would change how people view TKD or not ?

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

 

[MJS]

That's nice, but you're essentially saying that any stright line kick can be easily defended against. Doesn't make sense at all.

Maybe you can enlighten us as to how the MT people block kicks.

I'm sorry, but compare a teep kick to a front kick, and they're exactly the same motion. I'm sure the fact it's a MT fighter throwing out the former that makes it useful compared to a TKD guy doing the exact same motion is what really makes one powerful and the other not...

So you're saying that the MT guy throws with the exact same motion, same snap, etc?

Then the less powerful kicks are undesireable and therefore must be ineffective or else they would not be undesireable.

Again, everything has its time and place.

Moot since I'm not arguing about which has the most power.

Wasnt ref. to power, was talking about execution.

Except I never drew any such conclusion. I said there is one kick that pretty much sets MT apart, the others are either not practiced by them (meaning that MT does not have a more powerful version of that kick) or are practiced int he same manner. If you were paying attention for that matter, I also said that MT relies on a less restrictive set of sparring rules and tends to offer superior conditioning which helps greatly in the application of the techniques they do practice.

Ahh..so it all comes down to the rules?? What about on the street?? Again, if YOU were paying attn. you'd notice that I said that everything has its time and place, I didn't totally dismiss TKD kicks...basically, whatever the person wants to get out of the training, and whatever works best for the person doing it.

Yep, sounds like I came down HARD on MT. :idunno:

Nah..no more than I came down on TKD.

Right tools for the job at hand, perhaps?

Well, if those tools were the best that he had.......

As for this discussion...its off topic! I think that we can agree to disagree.

Mike

 

[Marginal]

The specifics of how they block it is moot given that they do actively practice teep kicks. Obviously more than a few slip through, or they wouldn't bother training 'em.

On the motion on the front kick, I'll describe it and you tell me what it sounds like. Knee's chambered high, and the foot is thrust out straight then rechambered back straight. It's a straight out thrusting motion, not a snapping motion at all.

Does that really sound dissimilar?

 

[MJS]

The specifics of how they block it is moot given that they do actively practice teep kicks. Obviously more than a few slip through, or they wouldn't bother training 'em.

Actually, I really don't think that its a moot point, considering that was one of the things that we were talking about earlier.

On the motion on the front kick, I'll describe it and you tell me what it sounds like. Knee's chambered high, and the foot is thrust out straight then rechambered back straight. It's a straight out thrusting motion, not a snapping motion at all.

Does that really sound dissimilar?

Actually, the way it looked to me, from how I've seen it done, its more of a push. I see what you're saying though, and thanks for taking the time to explain. Another question for you, if you dont mind answering. How is the TKD round kick thrown, and how does it vary from MT?

Mike

 

[Marginal]

It's moot because if one straight line kick can get in, another can get in as well. Side kicks have different properties upon impact than front kicks, so saying "they can defend both" doesn't really mean they can deal with both in the same manner. (Unless you care to explain how front kicks and side kicks really are exactly the same.)

Either way... (Went and got a link so you can argue against the WMC if you don't like the suggested counters to a straight line kick) http://www.wmtc.nu/html/tips/wmc03_tps-yoth.html

Defending vs a front kick:

Defend by sidestepping and return a kick.

Sway out of reach and throw a kick at the support leg of your opponent.

Use your front hand to ward off the kick and punch.

Block the kick with your leg, move inside and knee.

Block and throw a roundhouse kick.

None of those make me scream "OH NO! THE SIDE KICK'S DOOMED!!!" They're valid counters, but you still have to account for when it does get through, (because it will).

A MT round kick's thrown with a slight bend in the knee, and the hips lever the entire mess around to generate power. There is no chamber. The result is a slower, (generally speaking) but more powerful kick. Attacking tool's the shin.

A TKD round kick is chambered, the hips are brought around towards the target, and the kick is executed by snapping the kick out when your knee's in line with the target. (My org prefers to chamber with the heel above the knee, and to come in with more of a downward slashing motion) The chamber produces a faster kick, but it sacrifices mass and as a result, some power as well. Recognized attacking tools are the ball of the foot, the instep, and the shin (though the shin's rarely used in sparring/competition.)

 

[TigerWoman]

Marginal is pretty accurate in the defense of a front kick. A front kick is the easiest to defend against. The attacker is exposing the front of his body. That is probably why it is not used as a first attack nor used much singly. Another defense which I mainly use is a spin side. It is elemental in TKD to be fast at that and that is our strongest kick-the side We also do not bring it down and stop (to be a convenient target) but continue the attack and move.

A slow round kick is typical of a newbie in TKD because they use the hip to move the leg, and as an attack, it better be followed up or you are "open". As for a round kick that is snapped not being as powerful, I would debate that too. Breaking concrete with a snap kick proves that.

A "push" front kick, sets up an opponent, more to follow. My 2c, continue your debate.... TW

 

[Marginal]

The favored trick for a MT style round kick is to kick through baseball bats. Powerful can mean a lot of things. The problems begin when "not as powerful" is taken to mean "weak", which isn't necessarially the case.

 

[MichiganTKD]

And kicking through baseball bats is a trick in itself. Once you understand the mechanics and leverage involved, you will know that all is not as it seems. One of our black belts demonstrated it several years ago.

 

[Marginal]

Undoubtedly. Of course, all breaking involves tricks of one kind or another.