Importance of takedowns

[Ybot]

It seems everyone agrees that takedowns are important, and while I agree that takedowns are a wonderful skill to have, I'm going to play devils advocate and put forth an arguement in favor of "guard puller's" and "butt scooters" like myself.

First, and easiest, is in the sports setting. It's hard to argue that you can't be successful in sports BJJ without takedowns when so many are. A previous poster mentioned Eddie Bravo, I would also mention my instructor Cassio Werneck, and I think the best example would be Marcelo Garcia. I like the example of Marcelo because of how active he is on the bottom trying to sweep or take the back.

Pulling guard, or halfguard can be a very effective way to avoid the strength of good wrestlers when your takedowns are not to up to par. You take away the oppertunity of getting those takedown points, and avoid fighting a game they are more likely to win, and if they do they often end up in better position than if you just pull guard.

I must say, also, that it takes a certain amount of skill to pull guard in control of another experienced opponent. Do things wrong and they can reach for your legs and you just gave them takedown points. Or, pull it without control and now they pass and have cross-side.

Anyway, for the sports aspect it's a question of tactics too. Personally I have terrible takedowns, but great sweeps. It makes sense for me to pull guard. Let's say I muscle my way into a poor takedown. Now it's very likely (due to my poor takedowns) that my opponent will pull guard. Now I have to work to pass the guard, which can be the hardest thing to do in BJJ (especially since a guy that I am able to take down probably spends a lot of time on their back). Also, ending up in someones guard puts you at least two steps from a submission. Pass first then submit. On the other hand if I pull a good guard and sweep, most often I either end up in mount or cross-side, which I love, and while I'm working for my sweep from my guard, if the opertunity presents itself, I can sub him too.

 

[Ybot]

Okay, now I'll attempt the harder argument for "guard pullers" in a street fight.

Basicly it goes like this. We won't pull guard. It's kinda like all these strikers who believe in a real street confrontation we grapplers wont punch or kick. Or TMA's who believe we wouldn't utilize groin strikes or eye gouges. Of course we will, we're just not as good at it as someone who trains it, but we're probibly as good as the average Joe on the streests. Same with guard pullers and takedowns. We may not be as good at them as the guys that train them all the time, but we're probibly better than who ever we're fighting.

We will clinch and hold and if we have to try to take the fight down as best as possible. We're playing the odds. Most likely our opponent wont know what the heck he's doing, so we can get the takedown. Simple as that. If by some mischance we do end up on the bottom we fight from there, we've been there before and most people don't know how to defend the sweep.

Would it be better to know how to take them down in the street fight? Absolutely. Do I worry about it much? No. I don't plan on getting in any street fights any time soon.

There is always a chance that we'll meet up with the guy like Arena Bred, which then sucks to be us. But then again no matter what your skill there's always someone out there who has your number, so your just as screwed if you meet them.

In the end our best defense is to avoid these situations in the first place. We spend all this time worried about street application of our arts when odds are we'll never be put in a position where we will be "forced" to fight. Ego and saving face are usually what contributes most to a fight.

 

[Andrew Green]

I'll agree on both arguments, in sports JJ it works under the rules, and ultimately that is what counts. There is absolutely no reason sto fight a battle you can't win rather then conceed the battle and minimize losses (pull guard rather then lossing a fight for a takedown)

On "the street" no sane person would pull guard, even in MMA it is a very rare thing. But as you said, most sports fighters aren't really that concerned with it.

 

[kingkong89]

well said

a good takedown is always important in a grappaling match, but even if you get a good start in takedown never forget the tech. in submission:ultracool

 

[BJJMichigan]

Hello all,
I am new to the forums, but did have a takedown question. Do the "pure wrestlers" who do BJJ in a GI find that having the GI on as a disadvantage or advantage? Also, I am wondering if the Judo background people has a similar view in a "NON GI" setting.
The reason why I am asking this is my background isn't in wrestling or in Judo, but I have found thru personal experience (in BJJ class) that the wrestlers or Judo classmates are not really bothered by a GI or No GI at least by me anyway....lol

 

[Andrew Green]

I do no-gi, and I find the gi a real pain when trying to toss someone. I imagine Judo folks would find it the other way though

But my usual method of get tight and go for underhooks, neck ties and front headlocks and such things gets rather inhibited by people grabbing my collars and sleeves