Importance of takedowns

[Dark]

The reason why grappling dominate a lot of striking arts is simply because it is very easy to tie up with someone. Fights rarely end in one punch knockouts unless they're sucker punches. So even if you do eat a punch while trying to clinch you still have it in the end. And once they're on the ground they're a fish out of water.

Thats a dangerous assumption, most red neck "street fighters" are good on the ground, they have years of watching WWF/WWE and practicing it on their siblings. The reason why Grappling dominates allot of strikers is self-limitation. Basicly its a matter of choice, allot fo strikers choose to limit themselves only to striking and ignore trapping, grappling and ground work. I know allot of grapplers who go straight for the grappling and neglect the striking purely because they choose to.

Personally these are the guys I love, they have a specific game plan I can avoid or manipulate, its the people who are comfortable at all ranges I worried about...

Oh yeah for the record I've won more fights with sucker punches then joint-locks...

 

[WilliamJ]

Watching pro wrasslin makes you good on the ground? I don't care how many times you pile drive your little brother watching Ric Flair will NOT give you even one little bit of actual grappling skill. That's like saying watching the three stooges makes you a better boxer.

 

[Dark]

Watching pro wrasslin makes you good on the ground? I don't care how many times you pile drive your little brother watching Ric Flair will NOT give you even one little bit of actual grappling skill. That's like saying watching the three stooges makes you a better boxer.

Believe it or not there are some great grapplers who wrestle professionally, there are also a great many holds that can be applied to do serous harm. I'm not saying nor would I even attempt to say watching something on TV makes you an expert, if thats the case reading a book in kung-fu makes me a shaolin monk.

But I will say just because a person isn't paying for lessons in a gym or dojo, it doesn't mean that person has no concept or even limited expierence in an area. What about the guys who wrestled in highschool, I guess no concept of ground fighting, oh and those are usually the WWE fans

 

[Echsos]

Haha the ones who wrestled in highschools are rarely WWE fans from my experience (I wrestled 3 years in high school myself). It just so happens that high school wrestlers are fans of UFC so they tend to look for a brazilian jiu jitsu school or submission wrestling school the day they finish their last wrestling practice.

Thats a dangerous assumption, most red neck "street fighters" are good on the ground, they have years of watching WWF/WWE and practicing it on their siblings. The reason why Grappling dominates allot of strikers is self-limitation. Basicly its a matter of choice, allot fo strikers choose to limit themselves only to striking and ignore trapping, grappling and ground work. I know allot of grapplers who go straight for the grappling and neglect the striking purely because they choose to.

Personally these are the guys I love, they have a specific game plan I can avoid or manipulate, its the people who are comfortable at all ranges I worried about...

Oh yeah for the record I've won more fights with sucker punches then joint-locks...

It seems you are not very familiar with grappling. Practicing WWF moves will not help you become a good grappler haha. Although some of the moves are actual submission moves, most of them aren't even practical. Moving on the ground is not simply two guys hugging each other and trying to out strength him. It is all about hip movement and sensing what your oppnent is about to do.

Of course everyone is worried about people who are excellent at all ranges, who isn't? But I do have to say a pure grappler will beat a pure striker 90 percent of the time simply because it is so much easier to take a person to the ground than to stand and trade punches. Also, taking someone to the ground is a bit safer than striking (although it all depends on the situation like all things) because once you take someone to the ground, you can use your superior positioning to prevent him from generating power in his strikes. If you are striking with somebody, however, there is always the chance an unexperienced opponent will catch you with a wild swing and jumble up your noggin'.

 

[Dark]

The wild swing is a myth, an experienced striker will close in to use distance as a way to avoid the full power and any real danger of a hay-maker. The people who have all gotten taken down by a wild swing were usually very inexperienced fighters, strikers and grapplers.

In certain situations I'd go for grappling over striking, but in a streetfight I'll go for the striking. Sadly and I will admit this most strikers intentionallt ignore grappling for whatever reason.

 

[Kreth]

Thats a dangerous assumption, most red neck "street fighters" are good on the ground, they have years of watching WWF/WWE and practicing it on their siblings.

Thanks for the tip, I'll keep this in mind if I'm ever in a barfight and my opponent starts "Hulking up" or drags a thumb across his throat.

 

[Andrew Green]

lol - WWE trained and certified via cable TV

As silly as it is, there is a bit of a point there, lots of people spend a lot of time wrestling with friends / siblings as they grow up, and some even as adults. While it is certainly no where near the level of having a instructor and training with a club, it is better then nothing. Which is all that a lot of people have.

 

[Echsos]

People actually develop bad habits if they roll without an instructor, such as giving up their back or reaching back(a big no-no in wrestling). Of course we can always say that people could have experience friendly sparring with each other.
On another note, if I ever join the UFC I'm going to have my Martial Art be listed as WWE Style

 

[Andrew Green]

Hulk-do

Yes, I agree about bad habits, but, still is likely to be better then nothing if they are rolling competitively against each other.

 

[Kreth]

As silly as it is, there is a bit of a point there, lots of people spend a lot of time wrestling with friends / siblings as they grow up, and some even as adults.

I'm going to start working on the Last Ride, maybe even the Crippler Crossface, then I'll be ready to challenge John Cena--er, I mean, defend myself...

:uhyeah:

 

[Andrew Green]

Maybe we could put out a martialtalk video on weapons work, we could cover folding chairs, stop signs and cookie sheets

 

[Kreth]

Maybe we could put out a martialtalk video on weapons work, we could cover folding chairs, stop signs and cookie sheets

How could you forget ringside steps and the infamous Spanish announcer's table? :lol:

 

[Dark]

People actually develop bad habits if they roll without an instructor, such as giving up their back or reaching back(a big no-no in wrestling). Of course we can always say that people could have experience friendly sparring with each other.
On another note, if I ever join the UFC I'm going to have my Martial Art be listed as WWE Style

D0n't knock it Sakaburba (sp?) was a prowrestler

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

So was Ken Shamrock, so that point is moot.:lol:

 

[Echsos]

D0n't knock it Sakaburba (sp?) was a prowrestler

Of course we must pay our respects to the great Saku .

 

[WilliamJ]

There is a big difference between saying "There are legit grapplers who happen to be pro wrestlers." and saying "Watching pro wrestling makes you a better grappler."

The example of a high school wrestler who is also a WWE fan is completely spurious. If he wrestles he IS a trained grappler.

If you are rolling around with other untrained people you are learning basically nothing that will help with a trained grappler, be it wrestler, Judoka or BJJ guy. That's like saying getting into slap fights as a kid helps you get ready for pro boxing.

 

[Dark]

There is a big difference between saying "There are legit grapplers who happen to be pro wrestlers." and saying "Watching pro wrestling makes you a better grappler."

Watching alone no, watching and practicing even on other untrained opponents yes. I'm not saying that you can't pick up better skills in a gym, I'm not saying just you don't need instruction. What I am saying is just because someone isn't taught a codified system (martial arts) doesn't mean they can't pick up a few things.

Take a standing switch (wresting) or a cross armbar appied in judo, if you see it as kid and practice it enough to get used to using it. You very well can apply it, though maybe not perfectly so.

If you are rolling around with other untrained people you are learning basically nothing that will help with a trained grappler, be it wrestler, Judoka or BJJ guy. That's like saying getting into slap fights as a kid helps you get ready for pro boxing.

I've seen good fighter, strikers and grapplers taken down by "surprise techniques" applied by untrained fighters. I never said a untrained fighter could take a trained fighter, I did say there are different standards of training. How many street kids started off slap boxing and learned timing and distance, then applied that in fights and suddenly an untrained fighter that could hold there own against trained fighters.

Look at Mike Tyson as a kid grew up slap fighting, as a teen grew up street fighting, as an amature boxer dropped most of his peers and quickly when to gold glove and professional boxing. The point is what you define as training has no baring on someone may see as training, all martial arts began as untrained fighters.

Heilo Gracie only watched his brother practice jujitsu, and learned/modified the art from that. He never had formal instruction, thats not to say formal instruction isn't needed but if there is a will there is a way. If you want to grapple bad enough you will grab every source availble to you TV, books, videos, the "Old hole in the fence stories" and fighting with your friends.

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9lio_Gracie

 

[Arena Bred]

They can put you in a dominant position immediately and give you the initiative. Hands down, takedowns give you points in a match. What I care about is the street.

In street fights I'll go into the clinch to get out of punching range if he outstands me, and let him go for the takedown. I defend as long as it takes until he gets frustrated, then I'll go down with one and make him still think he's setting the pace. Then I push him to my closed guard and relax while he fights around for something. When I see his muscles start turning red from fatigue, I'll go in for my submission and turn the tides of the fight. The beauty of it is the deception. They think they had you for the first 15 moves, then BAM the last 2 win it for you. This has worked for me many times in the past, especially against stronger opponents who think they undoubtedly can muscle through anything. Once that ATP is depleted, they are weaker than a 115 lb girl.

Every fight is different. If I'm in a different mood or have something to prove, I'll get the takedown and everything. I like deception though. Making all think I am weak and lucky, when really its been in my hands the whole time. I find when I fight in front of my girlfriend is the only time I really go for my takedowns to a hold, then submit.

Grappling is put forward as a means of allowing a smaller man to survive against, or even defeat, a larger opponent. In the past that was more true than it is now. The playing field has been levelled by the proliferation of grappling in MMA and schools across the country.

Someone has already mentioned the time limitations in a streetfight, and I will try not to regurgitate to much information, but as my Grampa used to say, "A long fight is a lost fight."

I am a decent boxer, good wrestler, better than average grappler, and I am 6'1" and 230 lbs at around 12-14 percent bodyfat, depending on how much sweet tea I have been drinking.

Pull me down into your guard and I start smashing my elbows into sensitive things, stack, turn the corner, put my knee on your face(bounce and shift my weight), finish passing the leg, and start stomping on your face. Elapsed time, less than 30 seconds.

The key point that I forgot to point out is that I am a Marine, with a long personal history of H2H that includes real world use, and I like to practice my game, a lot.

Now, I will go all the way back to the beginning of your second paragraph. If you can clinch, you should be able to break free from the clinch. Now, use the most high percentage Self Defense technique of all. Run away.

As for the girlfriend watching, that is pretty juvenile. If you want to show people how tough you are, join up, and I will see you in Iraq.

 

[Andrew Green]

Grappling is put forward as a means of allowing a smaller man to survive against, or even defeat, a larger opponent.

Not just grappling, that's a claim common to almost all martial arts

 

[Echsos]

Grappling is put forward as a means of allowing a smaller man to survive against, or even defeat, a larger opponent. In the past that was more true than it is now. The playing field has been levelled by the proliferation of grappling in MMA and schools across the country.

Someone has already mentioned the time limitations in a streetfight, and I will try not to regurgitate to much information, but as my Grampa used to say, "A long fight is a lost fight."

I am a decent boxer, good wrestler, better than average grappler, and I am 6'1" and 230 lbs at around 12-14 percent bodyfat, depending on how much sweet tea I have been drinking.

Pull me down into your guard and I start smashing my elbows into sensitive things, stack, turn the corner, put my knee on your face(bounce and shift my weight), finish passing the leg, and start stomping on your face. Elapsed time, less than 30 seconds.

The key point that I forgot to point out is that I am a Marine, with a long personal history of H2H that includes real world use, and I like to practice my game, a lot.

Now, I will go all the way back to the beginning of your second paragraph. If you can clinch, you should be able to break free from the clinch. Now, use the most high percentage Self Defense technique of all. Run away.

As for the girlfriend watching, that is pretty juvenile. If you want to show people how tough you are, join up, and I will see you in Iraq.

Great post! With you 100%