I'm loving Judo so far!

[Headhunter]

There is a big difference between the sparring and wrestling. In sparring, you want to knock down your opponent. In wrestling, you want to take down your opponent.

If you are not doing full contact sparring and just do point sparring, it's easy to have a luck shot for a Karate white belt to hit on a Karate black belt. On the wrestling mat, it's very difficult for a Judo white belt to throw a Judo black belt.

What's the difference here? The experience and ability used the wrestling art is more important than experience and ability used in the striking art. I have seen wrestlers who has never lost on the mat and retired with a clean winning record. I have never seen any striker who has never lost in the ring.

Really? I've never wanted to knock down any of my sparring partners because it's sparring not fighting.

There's plenty of fighters who are undefeated in striking.you may have heard of a certain small time fighter called floyld mayweather.

Also they're totally different in wrestling you can wrestle for a long time because you're not getting hit but in striking there's only so long you can get punched in the face before you start to lose your edge

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For the striking art, this may be true. For the throwing art, this will never happen. You may have a lucky punch. But you will never have a luck throw.

My teacher always told me, "Anything that I have taught you, it won't work on me." I asked, "why?" He said, "Because I have more ability than you have". In MA, the technique is only the 50%. The other 50% is the ability.

Unless they are allowing it by being passive. I had a brown belt partner when I learned Osoto Gari, and she'd let me get position and perform the throw, even in sparring. No way would I have gotten that if she'd been resisting.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You're exactly right. I do my best to spar a yellow belt using only the skills (and skill level) of a yellow belt.
For example... yellow belts pretty much all telegraph every move 5-7 days in advance. But another yellow belt wouldn't notice. So I ignore it.
or... I'll shift my guard to create a large opening for a specific attack I want them to execute. If they execute that attack, I'll let it hit. Even if they do telegraph it for days. I slow down my own attacks and telegraph them (although I try to limit that to 2-3 days...). Giving them a yellow belts chance to defend appropriately.

As I said, I make it clear to the student exactly what I'm doing. And I expect senior students to do the same thing when they're paired with someone of significantly less training or experience. Sometimes, at least. There are certainly good reasons to show them what COULD be done. Sometimes as a way to counter their mistaken belief that they're some sort of prodigy. Sometimes as a way to give them goals to strive for.

But routinely pummeling an inexperienced opponent doesn't really teach them anything useful.

I am still working to develop this skill. I usually resort to playing defense-only when working with a student who is far below my level, because I have a hard time playing well at their level in the way you mention.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is a big difference between the sparring and wrestling. In sparring, you want to knock down your opponent. In wrestling, you want to take down your opponent.

If you are not doing full contact sparring and just do point sparring, it's easy to have a luck shot for a Karate white belt to hit on a Karate black belt. On the wrestling mat, it's very difficult for a Judo white belt to throw a Judo black belt.

What's the difference here? The experience and ability used the wrestling art is more important than experience and ability used in the striking art. I have seen wrestlers who has never lost on the mat and retired with a clean winning record. I have never seen any striker who has never lost in the ring.

This misses the point that hitting someone is not analogous to throwing someone. Throwing someone is more analogous to a big, heavy hit. And a white belt is no more likely to pull that off on a skilled BB than they are to manage a throw.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I am still working to develop this skill. I usually resort to playing defense-only when working with a student who is far below my level, because I have a hard time playing well at their level in the way you mention.

It's something I work on all the time, too. It's not easy, but I do think it's an important skill for a teacher to at least try to develop.

 

[Headhunter]

Well at least this thread has turned into a proper conversation anyway

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I usually resort to playing defense-only when working with a student who is far below my level, because I have a hard time playing well at their level in the way you mention.

The instructor should help his students to move up to his level and not to drop himself to his student's level.

For example, in the wrestling art, if the instructor can use hip throw to take his student down, he should use hip throw, inner hook combo to take his student down instead. The reason is the instructor should let his students know that the single throw is only the beginner level, the combo throw is the advance level. If the instructor drops himself to his student's level, his students may never be able to develop combo skill.

What's "combo throw"?

1. Opposite directions attack - You throw your opponent in one direction, if he resists, you throw him into the opposite direction.
2. Continue same direction attack - You throw your opponent in one direction, if he escapes, you still throw him into the same direction.
3. Attack one leg, attack another leg - You attack your opponent's leading leg, when he steps back, you attack his other legs.
4. Linear throw, circular throw - You use linear throw, when your opponent resists, you change into circular throw.
5. ...

In the striking art, the "combo strike" can be:

1. Use kick to set up punch.
2. Use punch to set up kick.
3. Use kick to set up another kick.
4. Use punch to set up another punch.
5. ...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The instructor should help his students to move up to his level and not to drop himself to his student's level.

For example, in the wrestling art, if the instructor can use hip throw to take his student down, he should use hip throw, inner hook combo to take his student down instead. The reason is the instructor should let his students know that the single throw is only the beginner level, the combo throw is the advance level. If the instructor drops himself to his student's level, his students may never be able to develop combo skill.

What's "combo throw"?

1. Opposite directions attack - You throw your opponent in one direction, if he resists, you throw him into the opposite direction.
2. Continue same direction attack - You throw your opponent in one direction, if he escapes, you still throw him into the same direction.
3. Attack one leg, attack another leg - You attack your opponent's leading leg, when he steps back, you attack his other legs.
4. Linear throw, circular throw - You use linear throw, when your opponent resists, you change into circular throw.
5. ...

In the striking art, the "combo strike" can be:

1. Use kick to set up punch.
2. Use punch to set up kick.
3. Use kick to set up another kick.
4. Use punch to set up another punch.
5. ...

I couldn't disagree more. If a student walks in, and I start using my best efforts against them, they learn nothing or only learn slowly. They need a chance to execute, a challenge (which I can give without bringing everything I have), and an opportunity to both fail and succeed. There's not much to be learned from not getting to do any techniques, and that's all that would happen to most new students - they'd just be confused and disoriented by the flurry of responses they can't process.

 

[JR 137]

The instructor should help his students to move up to his level and not to drop himself to his student's level.

For example, in the wrestling art, if the instructor can use hip throw to take his student down, he should use hip throw, inner hook combo to take his student down instead. The reason is the instructor should let his students know that the single throw is only the beginner level, the combo throw is the advance level. If the instructor drops himself to his student's level, his students may never be able to develop combo skill.

What's "combo throw"?

1. Opposite directions attack - You throw your opponent in one direction, if he resists, you throw him into the opposite direction.
2. Continue same direction attack - You throw your opponent in one direction, if he escapes, you still throw him into the same direction.
3. Attack one leg, attack another leg - You attack your opponent's leading leg, when he steps back, you attack his other legs.
4. Linear throw, circular throw - You use linear throw, when your opponent resists, you change into circular throw.
5. ...

In the striking art, the "combo strike" can be:

1. Use kick to set up punch.
2. Use punch to set up kick.
3. Use kick to set up another kick.
4. Use punch to set up another punch.
5. ...

There’s a time and place for everything. A beginner student initially needs to learn how a technique works under the most basic circumstances. Once the student becomes proficient in that technique, then the teacher should start teaching alternatives.

Take your favorite single leg takedown...
Teach a lead foot single leg
Allow the student to have success using it against minimal resistance
Slowly increase the level of resistance by being more elusive
Then start sprawling when the student’s ready
Then start countering from the sprawl, such as cross-face, spladle, etc.

If you’re constantly countering the beginner, the beginner will have little to no success with the technique.

In teaching 6th graders F=MA, I let them figure out how to calculate for F, given the M and A. Then I teach them how to solve for M or A, given the other two. Then I teach them how to find each one initially. Then I give them a real world scenario such as...
A car with 1000 kg of mass is traveling down the highway at 50 km/h. The driver speeds up to 100 km/h in 10 sec right before he loses control of the car and hits a guardrail. Calculate the amount of force the hit the guardrail with.

If I say F=MA to a group that’s never learned that equation before and immediately give them the above scenario, how successfully could they possibly answer it? It’s a multi-step problem, yet they’ve shown no proficiency in solving a single-step problem. The only ones who’ll correctly answer it are the ones who’ve actually seen and used it before, and ones who somehow guessed the correct answer without knowing exactly how (showing their work will prove that).

If you’re countering the new student’s technique every which way you know how, you’re competing against them far more than actually teaching them. Same for any student at any level being taught an entirely new technique. The difference with a more advanced student is they’ll grasp it quicker and you can start resisting far quicker, but the progression still remains.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you’re countering the new student’s technique every which way you know how, you’re competing against them far more than actually teaching them.

When you

- "develop" your technique, your partner will give you all the opportunity that you need.
- "test" your technique, your opponent will not give you any opportunity.

May be some MA schools mix both together. In my school, we separate it very clearly. You want your opponent to know exactly where his MA level is. You don't want to give him false confidence. If the score is 5-0, you should not fake it to 4-1.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When you

- "develop" technique with your partner, your partner will give you all the opportunity that you need.
- "test" your technique, your opponent will not give you any opportunity.

May be some MA schools mix both together. In my school, we separate it very clearly. The reason is simple. You want your opponent to know exactly where his MA level is. You don't want to give him false confidence. If the score is 5-0, you should not fake it to 4-1.

That sounds different than your previous statement. In sparring, I don't need to show students how weak they are by bringing everything I can. I step down to about their level, and occasionally just above it. I've never had a student (or junior training partner) assume that's the top of my skill. Perhaps that's partly because I allow them to attempt escapes and evasions from techniques from time to time, and they never succeed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That sounds different than your previous statement.

What's the difference?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What's the difference?

The way I read the previous one, the instructor would always bring his "A" game against the student (and presumably, so would the senior students). That leaves no room for developing against mild resistance appropriate to the student's level.

I still don't see much value in bringing everything I have against a student who is well below my ability level. They won't learn anything more from being completely stifled than they will from being gently resisted just enough to make techniques unavailable. The closer the student gets to my ability, the more of my ability I put on the mat for them to test themselves against.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have never given a free round to my students when they wrestle with me. A student won't learn during testing mode. He will only know where he is.