I'm a killing machine.

[Martial Tucker]

i'm going to disagree. and to say that "mental illness is no more prevalent among the homeless than in the general population" is a bit misleading when compared the population of the u.s. that is actually homeless. again, my experience is different with the homeless and i wouldn't expect anyone to agree with something they haven't experienced themselves. but its also important for all of us to keep in mind that our experiences as individuals are not a reflection of all of society. (including mine.) that's why we have statistics and (hopefully) impartial individuals to interpret them.

also, I agree completely with this statement: "I'm willing to bet a lunch and a few pints that you are more likely to be attacked by someone who does not look dangerous or potentially threatening at first glance" considering that most women who are either raped or sexually assualted is by either a friend or aquaintance. I'm not saying your wrong for suspecting that the seemingly innocent school girl on the corner might be packing heat, but rather that you shouldn't say that appearances should simply be disregarded. i don't think the saying, "you can't judge a book by its cover" is completely accurate. sometimes you can. :lookie:

I'm going to make a couple of more statements for clarification, then I'm done with this, because I think we're in about 90% agreement anyway.

First, when you're comparing two populations (or samples thereof) the relative sizes of either population is immaterial. You are still looking at/analyzing the proportion of each group that exhibits a certain characteristic in question. Your quoted statistics showed a mental illness
rate in the low 20% area for both the homeless population and the general population. Granted, those two groups may be MUCH different in other measured criteria, but in this discussion, we are only looking at the expected occurance of mental illness in a person selected at random from either group, and any Stat 101 student could tell you that given the data you provided, the likelihood is essentially equal.

As for fear of a "school girl on the corner packing heat", you're sensationalizing my example a bit. If a teenage girl that I don't know approaches me when I'm walking down the street, the first thing I'm going to do is glance over my shoulder to see if she's merely distracting me for an accomplice. My point was just to be leery, but not overreact when ANY stranger approaches.

Finally, as for saying that sometimes you CAN judge a book by it's cover,
I would say: Of course you can. And somtimes you can pick a winning race horse solely by the way he looks. But it's not the smart way to bet.
IMO, the bigger mistake is to be wrong about someone who appears harmless.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts and, as I said, I think we're mostly in agreement, and I'm moving on......

 

[funnytiger]

I agree that this discussion has a little out of hand. Just to clarify some clarifications then...

First, when you're comparing two populations (or samples thereof) the relative sizes of either population is immaterial. You are still looking at/analyzing the proportion of each group that exhibits a certain characteristic in question. Your quoted statistics showed a mental illness
rate in the low 20% area for both the homeless population and the general population. Granted, those two groups may be MUCH different in other measured criteria, but in this discussion, we are only looking at the expected occurance of mental illness in a person selected at random from either group, and any Stat 101 student could tell you that given the data you provided, the likelihood is essentially equal.

I am just going to say that I disagree that 22% of the entire population of the u.s. is in anyway comparible to a 20-25% in a relatively small group of individual. on paper, yes, its essentially the same. but when applied to a larger group verses a smaller group... i don't know...

As for fear of a "school girl on the corner packing heat", you're sensationalizing my example a bit. If a teenage girl that I don't know approaches me when I'm walking down the street, the first thing I'm going to do is glance over my shoulder to see if she's merely distracting me for an accomplice. My point was just to be leery, but not overreact when ANY stranger approaches.

ease up cowboy. i was JOKING. lol hence the exaggeration...

Finally, as for saying that sometimes you CAN judge a book by it's cover,
I would say: Of course you can. And somtimes you can pick a winning race horse solely by the way he looks. But it's not the smart way to bet.
IMO, the bigger mistake is to be wrong about someone who appears harmless.

maybe its different from a females point of view. if i see a guy who looks like he's a creep, i'm going to assume he is. maybe he's not, i don't care to find out. a little different from "a winning race horse solely by the way he looks". that's kind of making light the of topic a bit...

good topic, great discussion that didn't end in senseless name calling!

 

[Martial Tucker]

OK, I lied...one more thought...

It occured to me that we got caught up debating the prevalence of mental illness in the homeless vs the general population, and frankly, I strongly doubt that mental illness in and of itself is a valid predictor of crime anyway. Mental illness can manifest in many ways that are non-threatening to society. What we should be discussing is the rate of crimes committed by homeless vs other groups to make any earlier points worth considering. I don't have data on this, but my guess is that it would vary quite a bit from one geographic area to another depending somewhat on local conditions, which could possibly support a hypothesis about differing real life experiences in different cities.

 

[tradrockrat]

just a note on homlessness - we are, for the purposes of the thread, discussing a specific population of homeless - the ones who a few years ago before PC police arrived were called bums. They are a single portion of the homeless statics being refered to. I too knew many homeless people, in fact, for three months in 1999 I was homeless - but I was employed, kept clean and well groomed and worked my way out of the situation - yet I was homeless.

I guess that makes me part of the 75 - 80 % of mentally stable homeless people. There are many people who find themselves stuck in this unfortunate situation, but they aren't the kind of person who stumbles along muttering to himself - so can we get back to the reality of this specific post?

Here's the reality I saw throughout my life. In Baltimore, then Los Angeles, I knew and even interacted with many homeless people, the ones refered to in this thread. They would do work for us at the bar I worked at, they would run errands for us, they would joke around with us. They would also steal us blind, rob us, and even stab us in the back if they thought they needed to. Once a coworker got mugged by the nicest of the bunch who worked for us, and the homeless man actually showed up to clean the bar at the end of the night! Stable? I don't think so.

In my entire experience with this specific population, not one "homeless" person was mentally stable - whether it was from drug addiction, mental illness, alcoholism, or any other thing. Let me say that again - not one was trustworthy or stable. So today, when I see a guy approaching me talking about his issues with Holly Berry, I don't believe I'm jumping to conclusions whaen I identify him as a threat. The idea that I shouldn't judge this guy by his looks is in direct opposition to all of the advice I've ever heard (on this board and in life) about trusting my instincts.

 

[bluemtn]

I haven't had a situation like the original, really. Even when I lived in Memphis, and now outside of D.C. I think it's good to be aware of your surroundings at all time, no matter where you are, but that's how I was raised and now taught. If you can diffuse the situation from the start, then that's the best. Anyone can attack you, irregardless of financial standing- rich, poor...

 

[hapki68]

Wow... I can't believe my original post... about me being asked to pose naked for a magazine... ended up being a debate on the homeless. Can we bring this back to me??

Hapki

 

[Kreth]

Wow... I can't believe my original post... about me being asked to pose naked for a magazine...

The part he's not telling is that the magazine was Field & Stream... :uhyeah:

 

[bluemtn]

Wow... I can't believe my original post... about me being asked to pose naked for a magazine... ended up being a debate on the homeless. Can we bring this back to me??

Hapki

Well, good for you! No! I've never been asked to be a nude model before, and I'd probably ask the person if they were from another planet.

 

[funnytiger]

I completely agree. Actually, the site where I got the statistics from agreed with what you just pointed out. I wasn't trying to say that a homeless person is more likely to attack you than a "normal" person. I think my statement about sexual assaults/rapes supports that. I have personal experience of living with a mental illness and when treated properly one is just as "normal" as anyone else.

tradrockrat, sorry for the side tracking! Good points in your posts though.

OK, I lied...one more thought...

It occured to me that we got caught up debating the prevalence of mental illness in the homeless vs the general population, and frankly, I strongly doubt that mental illness in and of itself is a valid predictor of crime anyway. Mental illness can manifest in many ways that are non-threatening to society. What we should be discussing is the rate of crimes committed by homeless vs other groups to make any earlier points worth considering. I don't have data on this, but my guess is that it would vary quite a bit from one geographic area to another depending somewhat on local conditions, which could possibly support a hypothesis about differing real life experiences in different cities.

 

[hapki68]

Kreth... good comeback! LOL :lfao:

 

[swiftpete]

I am just going to say that I disagree that 22% of the entire population of the u.s. is in anyway comparible to a 20-25% in a relatively small group of individual. on paper, yes, its essentially the same. but when applied to a larger group verses a smaller group... i don't know...

Dude..it means the same thing. Sorry to just pick that point out of your posts but I can't help but comment on it!

 

[funnytiger]

Dude..it means the same thing. Sorry to just pick that point out of your posts but I can't help but comment on it!

no problem. like i said, on paper its definitely the same, but i think the same statistic in such a small group is more alarming. agree to disagree is what i say.

 

[painstain]

i agree that you cant be too careful, but i don't think you have to worry about every homeless man trying to bum money off of you, unless he is an undercover ninja. would you rather gang members (often in the vicinity of homeless men). if he was drunk, you don't have to know martial arts to take down a drunk homeless type of person.

my choice of first defense would be overwhelming power on an already off balance person. just a very forceful shove. i think i could dodge a drunk punch if my awareness is in check.

with respect,
doug hilton

 

[hongkongfooey]

just a note on homlessness - we are, for the purposes of the thread, discussing a specific population of homeless - the ones who a few years ago before PC police arrived were called bums. They are a single portion of the homeless statics being refered to. I too knew many homeless people, in fact, for three months in 1999 I was homeless - but I was employed, kept clean and well groomed and worked my way out of the situation - yet I was homeless.

I guess that makes me part of the 75 - 80 % of mentally stable homeless people. There are many people who find themselves stuck in this unfortunate situation, but they aren't the kind of person who stumbles along muttering to himself - so can we get back to the reality of this specific post?

Here's the reality I saw throughout my life. In Baltimore, then Los Angeles, I knew and even interacted with many homeless people, the ones refered to in this thread. They would do work for us at the bar I worked at, they would run errands for us, they would joke around with us. They would also steal us blind, rob us, and even stab us in the back if they thought they needed to. Once a coworker got mugged by the nicest of the bunch who worked for us, and the homeless man actually showed up to clean the bar at the end of the night! Stable? I don't think so.

In my entire experience with this specific population, not one "homeless" person was mentally stable - whether it was from drug addiction, mental illness, alcoholism, or any other thing. Let me say that again - not one was trustworthy or stable. So today, when I see a guy approaching me talking about his issues with Holly Berry, I don't believe I'm jumping to conclusions whaen I identify him as a threat. The idea that I shouldn't judge this guy by his looks is in direct opposition to all of the advice I've ever heard (on this board and in life) about trusting my instincts.

AH YES, the Baltimore bum. These guys are all over the Inner Harbor especially near the WTC and the Constellation. Out in Baltimore County they are all over the place on Rt 7 and Rossville Blvd. I had a few problems with one that was drunk all the time and found living under the steps at my apartment building. This guy would drink him self sick and urinal and defecate all over the place.
I've seen these guys spit on people through their car windows, when they weren't given any money. Another got violent with a woman sitting at a stop light. All of the bums in this area have alcohol problems. I even tried to get one guy into a shelter that would help him get a job and off the street. He lasted a week. Then back on the street he went. You see he would have had to get off the booze, to stay in the program.

Most don't want help. They want to leech off of you so they can continue to get high or drunk. They feel that they are owed something.

I don't want to be their friends, and I don't trust them.
If anyone is offended by my comments, so be it.

 

[tradrockrat]

AH YES, the Baltimore bum. These guys are all over the Inner Harbor especially near the WTC and the Constellation. Out in Baltimore County they are all over the place on Rt 7 and Rossville Blvd.

yes sir - I worked in Fells Point for a while - that's the bar / college scene just a section 8 project away from the inner harbor We have our own special language and our own special breed of bum down der in bawlmer, hon.

 

[hongkongfooey]

yes sir - I worked in Fells Point for a while - that's the bar / college scene just a section 8 project away from the inner harbor We have our own special language and our own special breed of bum down der in bawlmer, hon.

I haven't been to Fell Point in Ages, since 1997.

Yes we do have a special breed of bum around here.