if you want to groin kick. train the inside leg kick.

[drop bear]

Poor accuracy leading to a kick that had more of an effect than hitting the target he was aiming for.



A good way to break your toes unless your opponent is standing with his legs wide open she would be better off hitting with the ball of the foot.

No wait according to Chris that kick had no useful effect.

I mean obviously you would aim the kick at the groin if you wanted to kick them in the groin. But the entry and the mechanics would either be from what you practiced doing the inside leg kick. Or what you practiced doing a groin specific kick.

 

[RTKDCMB]

No wait according to Chris that kick had no useful effect.

Pretty sure he was only referring to the blonde girl's kick.

I mean obviously you would aim the kick at the groin if you wanted to kick them in the groin. But the entry and the mechanics would either be from what you practiced doing the inside leg kick. Or what you practiced doing a groin specific kick.

I always do a target specific kick, If I want to kick the groin I aim a kick to the groin, if I want to kick to the inside leg I aim a kick to the inside leg. There are many ways to kick the groin and many ways to kick to the inside leg and some of those ways will be similar.

 

[Tez3]

= cod's wallop

Nice one!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

My issue there is you have so much padding that you loose the reaction a bit. So the partner either has to guess at a response or is unreasonably resistant.

I have trained with a fist suit. And I don't know,most stuff is just more tactile with some sort of variation of mma gear.

Pros and cons to everything. However, with the predator suit they can work full power, full on kicks without holding back one bit. This helps with confidence in what they are doing and because the suit allows full mobility you move and act just like a real attacker. However, like any kind of training there are always pros and cons!

 

[Chris Parker]

What would be those plenty of ways to train live?

Well, let's see… you have non-contact sparring… semi-contact… structured drills done at full speed (not power)… movement drills with impact pads… random attacks (with one side designated as "attacker")… all of these allow for "groin kicks" to be exercised in live and semi-live manners. But here's the thing… sparring doesn't allow for specific techniques to be trained… you need to use drills for that. So your entire line of thinking that sparring is the only "live" training is flawed from the outset.

How should that kick be done?

Well, on target would be a good start…

No wait according to Chris that kick had no useful effect.

Not exactly what I said.

 

[drop bear]

Well, let's see… you have non-contact sparring… semi-contact… structured drills done at full speed (not power)… movement drills with impact pads… random attacks (with one side designated as "attacker")… all of these allow for "groin kicks" to be exercised in live and semi-live manners. But here's the thing… sparring doesn't allow for specific techniques to be trained… you need to use drills for that. So your entire line of thinking that sparring is the only "live" training is flawed from the outset.

Lol.

That is just precious.

 

[Chris Parker]

Dude… what? I hardly know how to respond to that… mainly as I hardly know what you're referring to. Are you suggesting that the alternate training methods for your "groin kick" aren't methods that can be used? Or are you arguing against my comment that sparring isn't really the way to develop skill in a specific (single) technique? Cause, really, in either case… present your argument. Without it, you just look… well… lacking.

 

[drop bear]

Dude… what? I hardly know how to respond to that… mainly as I hardly know what you're referring to. Are you suggesting that the alternate training methods for your "groin kick" aren't methods that can be used? Or are you arguing against my comment that sparring isn't really the way to develop skill in a specific (single) technique? Cause, really, in either case… present your argument. Without it, you just look… well… lacking.

Most of your methods there are a pretty nieve way to approach resisted training. But it is nice that you are trying.

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh, mate… look, to be clear here, you have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, and the word is "naive"… also spelt "irony", it seems…

 

[Koshiki]

Mightn't it be fair to say that, as with nearly everything in MA training, every safe method will have serious drawbacks as regards reality, making it a good idea to have a variety of approximations, the limitations of each which will hopefully be cancelled by the strengths of the other?

Personally, I'm very much NOT a fan of the re-targetting of techniques in practice. However, I know guys that do it, many of them very competent, and there are certain advantages to the practice, eg. speed, power, live-ness of training.

And to be fair, depending on how you're performing the kicks, I don't think it's fair to say that, for example, an upward/rising shin kick to the upper inner thigh is significantly different from an upward/rising shin kick to the groin, any more than a stomp/cross kick to the upper knee is significantly different to a stomp/cross kick to the shin, or to the hip. It's similar mechanics, with a different target and angle.

But, also to be fair, depending on your proffered kick for inner thigh kicks and for groin kicks, they can be very different, in which case training one as a place holder for the other is counter-productive at the very best.

I'd rather not antagonize any of the parties in this thread, but it does seem like a rather nebulous topic that should have a lot of agreement and common ground, rather than a divisive, dichotomous issue worthy of such polemics...

 

[Star Dragon]

The thing is, under the stress of a real situation, you will tend to do whatever your training has ingrained into your subconscious mind and muscle memory. So altering targets just for training purposes is not good practice, imo.

 

[Koshiki]

The thing is, under the stress of a real situation, you will tend to do whatever your training has ingrained into your subconscious mind and muscle memory. So altering targets just for training purposes is not good practice, imo.

Agreed. I am, like I said, not a fan of it, but I don't know that it's the terrible, horrible, moronic, devastating practice method that some people make it out to be.

I mean, if you practice with correct targeting, the most common thing to do is pull the strike, also not a good thing to "ingrain into your subconscious" (I might quibble and say unconscious).

Slow training with follow through might be a good approach, but that has the very serious downside of potentially enabling complex techniques, which may seem effective and easy to do, but which at full speed just don't happen.

My point being, that no, I don't train alternative targets, yes I think they train poor habits, but no, I don't think that they have no acceptable place in anyone's training.

Again, I don't like them, but I don't understand the vitriol towards the entire concept.

 

[drop bear]

The thing is, under the stress of a real situation, you will tend to do whatever your training has ingrained into your subconscious mind and muscle memory. So altering targets just for training purposes is not good practice, imo.

So worst case. Under stress you fire an inside leg kick?

 

[Star Dragon]

Agreed. I am, like I said, not a fan of it, but I don't know that it's the terrible, horrible, moronic, devastating practice method that some people make it out to be.

I mean, if you practice with correct targeting, the most common thing to do is pull the strike, also not a good thing to "ingrain into your subconscious" (I might quibble and say unconscious).

Slow training with follow through might be a good approach, but that has the very serious downside of potentially enabling complex techniques, which may seem effective and easy to do, but which at full speed just don't happen.

My point being, that no, I don't train alternative targets, yes I think they train poor habits, but no, I don't think that they have no acceptable place in anyone's training.

Again, I don't like them, but I don't understand the vitriol towards the entire concept.

Agreed, practice requires compromises one way or another. Pulling techniques is one of them, it is still better than doing fully extended techniques to a spot in front of the target ("tsun dome") which leads to a wrong sense of distance. It is out of fashion even in traditional Karate, to my knowledge.

I like my Uke to wear protective gear, so that I don't need to restrain myself all that much, although I will be using common sense nevertheless.

For training proper penetration, I do plenty of techniques on my BOB (he isn't happy if he doesn't get his daily beating) and other equipment.

 

[Koshiki]

So worst case. Under stress you fire an inside leg kick?

Certainly better than placing a perfectly aimed groin kick with perfect technique and timing, and accidentally pulling it at the last second!

I think many people just don't really think about how short many scuffles are, like 10 seconds short. Like 5 seconds.

Sure, in a two minute slugfest, you have time to think about correcting the non-realistic aspects of training, like targeting, pulling strikes, etc, but if you have a ten second, fight, it might take you a good 5 seconds (or the whole fight) just to really comprehend that you're fighting. For that period of initial disorientation, as anyone who's ever been smacked knows, you're just kinda running on autopilot, wating for your brain to catch up.

That really, is the biggest difference between sparring and not getting beaten up. In sparring, you don't have that surprise, fear, confusion, and general chaos inhibiting your brain. You KNOW what's going on, what the worst case scenario is; you're as prepared as you can be.

 

[Star Dragon]

So worst case. Under stress you fire an inside leg kick?

Yes. This can be a viable target too, depending on the weapon, the exact target and what one is trying to accomplish, but it may not give one the intended result, which could be crucial. Just think of a woman defending herself against a rapist.

By the same token, there are folks who in training substitute a chop to the chest for one to the throat etc, but for the given reasons, I would rather pull a technique and/or use protectors. Always, safety is first.

 

[Koshiki]

...it is still better than doing fully extended techniques to a spot in front of the target ("tsun dome") which leads to a wrong sense of distance.

So. Much. Hate. For that training method. There's actually a thread on here about it, in the form of sparring, giving a nice long explanation, much better than any I've ever heard previously. And I still really, really hate the idea that you can just "adjust distancing when you need to."

No, you can't!

I'm a fan of mixing a bunch of sparring games/compromises, but my favorite is controlled sparring with full extension. Also the hardest to learn to do well, however.

The two forms I actively avoid are target replacement and full extension but no penetration, as I think they train the worst habits.

For example, I've either heard or read Dan Djerdjevick explaining how punching the chest is a safe way to train for face strikes. Safe yes, but effective is another matter, open for discussion. If you fall back on that training, have one opportunity for a good strong hit, and you choke and slug the guy in the chest, well...

That said, in the case of the inside leg kick, as Drop Bear says, if you don't adjust your training in the heat of the moment, you've still thrown a viable technique, which is at least some consolation, although there are about 8 general types of leg kicks I'd rather get off, if I could only get one leg kick in.

 

[drop bear]

Yes. This can be a viable target too, depending on the weapon, the exact target and what one is trying to accomplish, but it may not give one the intended result, which could be crucial. Just think of a woman defending herself against a rapist.

By the same token, there are folks who in training substitute a chop to the chest for one to the throat etc, but for the given reasons, I would rather pull a technique and/or use protectors. Always, safety is first.

Just think if a woman kicks the guys groin and it dosent work. Throwing that kick from a background of live sparring makes you aware that you need to set up your entries and exits. So when a technique dosent give the intended results you have already supported it with more techniques.

People get distracted by the technique. Think about maywhether. Undefeated boxer. What punch does he use that makes him so good?

 

[drop bear]

Certainly better than placing a perfectly aimed groin kick with perfect technique and timing, and accidentally pulling it at the last second!

I think many people just don't really think about how short many scuffles are, like 10 seconds short. Like 5 seconds.

Sure, in a two minute slugfest, you have time to think about correcting the non-realistic aspects of training, like targeting, pulling strikes, etc, but if you have a ten second, fight, it might take you a good 5 seconds (or the whole fight) just to really comprehend that you're fighting. For that period of initial disorientation, as anyone who's ever been smacked knows, you're just kinda running on autopilot, wating for your brain to catch up.

That really, is the biggest difference between sparring and not getting beaten up. In sparring, you don't have that surprise, fear, confusion, and general chaos inhibiting your brain. You KNOW what's going on, what the worst case scenario is; you're as prepared as you can be.

You could do 10,15 or 30 second sparring rounds which would at least get you banging from the pocket.

 

[Koshiki]

You could do 10,15 or 30 second sparring rounds which would at least get you banging from the pocket.

Very true. Even in sparring, those first few seconds are the hardest, even with someone you've played with for years. I was thinking more about the real nervousness and real uncertainty you get when you realize someone actually wants to hurt you, rather than spar with you. That period of disorientation, that most key part of any real self-defense encounter, is what you really can't synthesize (ethically).

For most of us, that's something we'll only ever experience once or twice in life, if we're unlucky.

For the record, I don't really consider chest-thumping, ego-driven "bar-fight" type encounters to be truly self-defense, in many respects. In many ways, they're more like angry sparring matches; you generally know they're coming, you both sort of agree, and there's usually at least some semblance of civility and an unspoken rule-set, as opposed to real, terrifying assault, which most people never encounter, you know, the whole actually trying to kill you, rather than just wanting your wallet or showing off for your buddies...

That second, more serious case, is where you need to fall back on reactions instilled through years of training. It's not you-lose-you-get-bruised, it's embarrassing; it's much scarier, which is why the more adjustment it requires, the less I'm a fan of it.

-----------

Again, not dismissing the whole inside-leg-for-groin thing, it's just wouldn't be my go to if I was worried about violent assault, and groin kicks were an integral part of my self-defense repertoire.

For the record, I actually spend very little time worrying about groin kicks, they drop some guys, they take a while on others, and some guys can tough it out for a bit. Nobody can run fast with a knee that's not functioning, punch hard with a dead elbow, or do much of anything with a brain that decides it's nap time.

Definitely a fan over structural damage and/or functional disruption over pain compliance. And yes, I would consider groin kicks to be more about pain compliance than anything else...