if it aint broken

[marlon]

Perhaps Master Bishop and other kajukenbo practitioners can help with this one

Master Bishop mentioned in a post that he had been practicing with an SK person who could not get a technique to work at full speed. Master Bishop noticed it was ?punch counter 6 with a different block and changing the block made it work.
Could we go through some of the combinations to see where they came from and what modifications took place?
for instance i believe that combination 3 was initially done without a block

Respectfully,
Marlon
Combination 10
Right step to 1:30 with a left outward knife hand block and right ridge or spear to groin
Left arm wraps and contols the arm Right bear paw to the ear/head twist the head and pull into the chest as you turn ccw= takedown
right driving knife to the ribs right dropping knife to the plexus jump arm break as you land and right droppiing knife to the throat

 

[DavidCC]

I study Geary's Shaolin Kempo, and our "Shaolin Defense Maneuver 10" is very similar.

As opponent punches w/ right, enter on the inside with by stepping right foot to 1:30 simultaneous with left outward knife hand block to the wrist and right ridge hand to groin. Left hand coils around attacker's right arm establishing control of the arm.

Step back with left foot to 4:30 simultaneous with right knife-hand to left side of opponent's neck, taking opponent down with head towards 6. Bending at the knees and using leverage of the forearm on the opponent's elbow to retain control of the right arm, strike the solar plexus twice with right knife hand. Quickly straighten the legs standing up straight to break or hyperexted the elbow. Deliver a 3rd knife hand strike to the solar plexus. Cross away with guard.

 

[John Bishop]

Over the years I had been led to believe that the techniques and forms of "Karazempo Goshin Jitsu" was very close to the "Original Method" of Kajukenbo. And that the techniques of "Nick Cerios Kenpo" and "Shaolin Kempo" were very close to "Karazempo".
Just last month out of curiosity I got a video of the complete Shaolin Kempo techniques from white belt to 1st degree black belt, as taught in the USSD and Villari schools (so the author claims).
After reviewing the techniques, I could only find one technique (and no forms) that even closely resembled the "Original Method" of Kajukenbo.
It is the one I have described before. Without looking it up on the tape again, I think it was numbered "combo 4" or something 4. It resembles Kajukenbo Punch Counter 6, with the block changed from a outward block to a upward block.

At the time the founders were developing the Kajukenbo system, there were only a handful of kenpo schools, and a few jujitsu schools that were teaching "all races". The Chinese and Okinawans in Hawaii would not teach anyone outside their race. The founders felt that the majority of "street fighters" that you would encounter would be trained in western boxing, or possibly escrima. If they had any training at all.
The Kalihi District, where the founders, (and Ed Parker, Wally Jay, William Chow, etc.) grew up was a very poor area of Hawaii (still is). Boxing was a young mans possible way of escaping the poverty. So just about everyone who was interested in the fighting arts started in boxing. With a large Filipino population, escrima was also taught in backyards.
Keeping this in mind, Kajukenbo developed, "Punch Counters", "Club Counters", and "Knife Counters", in addition to forms, "2 man", "3 man", "4 man" defenses. Basically, defenses against street attacks.

In the "punch counters", the normally seen traditional "step thru lunge punch to the chest" is not not used.
The attacks in the "Punch Counters" and "Alphabets", are usually a boxers "right cross", "left jab & right cross combination", "grab & hook punch combination", "right cross & hook punch combination", "grab from behind, turn the defender around, and punch him". With all punches targeted at the face.

 

[marlon]

Thanks Master Bishop,

perhaps you could post one or two kajkenbo punch counter and we could see if they relate to a combination. I have heard that USSD has changed them somewhat.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[kungfulee]

Hey marlon did you study with ussd or villaris?

 

[Doc]

Over the years I had been led to believe that the techniques and forms of "Karazempo Goshin Jitsu" was very close to the "Original Method" of Kajukenbo. And that the techniques of "Nick Cerios Kenpo" and "Shaolin Kempo" were very close to "Karazempo".
Just last month out of curiosity I got a video of the complete Shaolin Kempo techniques from white belt to 1st degree black belt, as taught in the USSD and Villari schools (so the author claims).
After reviewing the techniques, I could only find one technique (and no forms) that even closely resembled the "Original Method" of Kajukenbo.
It is the one I have described before. Without looking it up on the tape again, I think it was numbered "combo 4" or something 4. It resembles Kajukenbo Punch Counter 6, with the block changed from a outward block to a upward block.

At the time the founders were developing the Kajukenbo system, there were only a handful of kenpo schools, and a few jujitsu schools that were teaching "all races". The Chinese and Okinawans in Hawaii would not teach anyone outside their race. The founders felt that the majority of "street fighters" that you would encounter would be trained in western boxing, or possibly escrima. If they had any training at all.
The Kalihi District, where the founders, (and Ed Parker, Wally Jay, William Chow, etc.) grew up was a very poor area of Hawaii (still is). Boxing was a young mans possible way of escaping the poverty. So just about everyone who was interested in the fighting arts started in boxing. With a large Filipino population, escrima was also taught in backyards.
Keeping this in mind, Kajukenbo developed, "Punch Counters", "Club Counters", and "Knife Counters", in addition to forms, "2 man", "3 man", "4 man" defenses. Basically, defenses against street attacks.

In the "punch counters", the normally seen traditional "step thru lunge punch to the chest" is not not used.
The attacks in the "Punch Counters" and "Alphabets", are usually a boxers "right cross", "left jab & right cross combination", "grab & hook punch combination", "right cross & hook punch combination", "grab from behind, turn the defender around, and punch him". With all punches targeted at the face.

Exactly. There are no step through punches in the kenpo interpretation I was taught, except as a secondary follow up punch when distance dictates. Hey John, I like the picture. That's a really good look for you.

 

[SK101]

for instance i believe that combination 3 was initially done without a block

Hello Marlon,

One of the versions I was taught for 3 was it has a block for safety when someone is first learning it.

Then there is no block and no check to force the student to use chest rotation in order to evade the punch. This kind of makes the student work without the crutch so to speak.

Then they get it with a check.

I don't know when or who taught me that way of looking at it, but I still teach with those 3 steps.

 

[SK101]

In the "punch counters", the normally seen traditional "step thru lunge punch to the chest" is not not used.
The attacks in the "Punch Counters" and "Alphabets", are usually a boxers "right cross", "left jab & right cross combination", "grab & hook punch combination", "right cross & hook punch combination", "grab from behind, turn the defender around, and punch him". With all punches targeted at the face.

This is just my opinion, but the half moon forward or step thru lunge is designed to make it easier for a student to learn a technique. It takes a large amount of time to clear the distance making reaction time easier. Once someone has the technique then they begin to work on modified punch in technique such as live punch(place your left hand on defenders right shoulder and punch them if they don't move fast enough), horse stance so you can punch in with the right or left, starting from the ground, pull dragging from the half moon, etc...

 

[fnorfurfoot]

Hello Marlon,

One of the versions I was taught for 3 was it has a block for safety when someone is first learning it.

Then there is no block and no check to force the student to use chest rotation in order to evade the punch. This kind of makes the student work without the crutch so to speak.

Then they get it with a check.

I don't know when or who taught me that way of looking at it, but I still teach with those 3 steps.

Our 3 combination has never had a block. It was always an evasion technique with the left hand as a check in case the attacker reacted strangly to the groin strike or his strike followed you as you stepped out to the left.

 

[fnorfurfoot]

strangely, (not how one would expect)

Sorry.

 

[RevIV]

There was a huge part of a thread where Danjo and some others (myself) talk about combo 3. If someone knows which thread that was can we re-direct instead of going through it all again. No offense but there was a lot of what is being discussed now there.
In Peace
Jesse
(including - original by GM Pesare and all the variations)

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i always thought one of the guiding principals of kenpo was

"if it ain't broken.....check your angle of impact and try again."

 

[sifubry]

This is just my opinion, but the half moon forward or step thru lunge is designed to make it easier for a student to learn a technique. It takes a large amount of time to clear the distance making reaction time easier. Once someone has the technique then they begin to work on modified punch in technique such as live punch(place your left hand on defenders right shoulder and punch them if they don't move fast enough), horse stance so you can punch in with the right or left, starting from the ground, pull dragging from the half moon, etc...

This is what we did in our dojo. Early ranks did the step through punch to make it easy to learn -- like training wheels. Then you move to the shuffle cross strike -- more realistic.

Punch Counter 1 is Combination 6, with PC 2-5 being variants. PC 6 and Combination 4 are similar techniques (or really the same). Several of the Club defenses and knife defenses in Kaju are the same as SKK, but there's little consistency between instructors in these techniques.

Many of the other combinations can be found in Cerio's videos and his books. IMHO, the root techniques are Punch Counters and somehow got adapted by the time it reached Prof. Cerio.

Sifu Bry