If I could get some insights
- Thread starter DocWard
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ElfTengu
Blue Belt
I'm afraid that's about as helpful as Stephen is likely to be.
KarateEsque, with your kempo and occupational background, you will find plenty in any of the X-kans that will be of use to you, although you may find the relaxed nature of the Bujinkan difficult to adjust to for the same reasons. The feeling is that real fights lack structure and so we apply the same concept to our training and ranking. (Stephen will disagree)
And rather than make judgements merely from observing, as you did for Toshindo, ask the instructor after the class about any doubts you have about what you have seen, and if he/she is worth their salt they will be able to put your mind at rest and most likely with a physical demonstration, with you as the recipient so that you know it works.
As long as your training methods 'keep it real' you will be fine.
Hudson69's comments are certainly true if you're a weak skinny university student hoping to become a super warrior and stop the the jocks keeping doing wedgies on you, but you're obviously not.
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DocWard
Purple Belt
Thanks for the insights so far. Perhaps I should elaborate a bit, to limit some confusion.
I definitely appreciate my Kenpo instruction, and continue to maintain my instructor in the highest regard. I learned much there, and thanks to my work there, have a fair level of confidence in my abilities. As I am now in my early forties, I am not really looking to prove that I can keep up with the young guys in sparring and tournements. Heck, I still get enough of trying to keep up with the young guys running with a combat arms unit in the Guard. I also get a bit of firearms training (which I also practice outside the Guard), and having three qualified Army Combatives instructors in my unit means I get a bit of time practicing that as well.
At this point in my life, I am looking to not only develop and broaden my experience in the martial arts physically, I am looking to delve more into the philosophical aspects of the arts, even the "spiritual" aspects, for lack of a better word, something that was alway lacking in my Kenpo experience. This has been something that has always been an interest, but ended up taking a back seat to learning the self-defense aspects. Thus, if I were to return to Kenpo, it would be for the purpose of completing my black belt, essentially to be able to say I had earned it. I don't know if that is a good enough reason, considering the shift in my interests.
The philosophy aspect is partially what drew me toward Mr. Hayes. It seems though, that in part my experience at the dojo might be what didn't sit well. Not quite anything I could put a finger on, but just something saying I wouldn't fit in as well as I would've liked. When I said earlier that I wasn't impressed with what I saw, I should say I didn't mean the technical aspects of what I saw, I meant the overall experience. It seemed to be as much or more about "selling the brand," the brand being Mr. Hayes and the name To-Shin Do, as anything else. Obviously, I didn't talk to Mr. Hayes personally, and the members of the staff I did talk with were polite and friendly, but still, I left feeling disconcerted, for lack of a better word.
Talk about your long-winded posts!
I definitely appreciate my Kenpo instruction, and continue to maintain my instructor in the highest regard. I learned much there, and thanks to my work there, have a fair level of confidence in my abilities. As I am now in my early forties, I am not really looking to prove that I can keep up with the young guys in sparring and tournements. Heck, I still get enough of trying to keep up with the young guys running with a combat arms unit in the Guard. I also get a bit of firearms training (which I also practice outside the Guard), and having three qualified Army Combatives instructors in my unit means I get a bit of time practicing that as well.
At this point in my life, I am looking to not only develop and broaden my experience in the martial arts physically, I am looking to delve more into the philosophical aspects of the arts, even the "spiritual" aspects, for lack of a better word, something that was alway lacking in my Kenpo experience. This has been something that has always been an interest, but ended up taking a back seat to learning the self-defense aspects. Thus, if I were to return to Kenpo, it would be for the purpose of completing my black belt, essentially to be able to say I had earned it. I don't know if that is a good enough reason, considering the shift in my interests.
The philosophy aspect is partially what drew me toward Mr. Hayes. It seems though, that in part my experience at the dojo might be what didn't sit well. Not quite anything I could put a finger on, but just something saying I wouldn't fit in as well as I would've liked. When I said earlier that I wasn't impressed with what I saw, I should say I didn't mean the technical aspects of what I saw, I meant the overall experience. It seemed to be as much or more about "selling the brand," the brand being Mr. Hayes and the name To-Shin Do, as anything else. Obviously, I didn't talk to Mr. Hayes personally, and the members of the staff I did talk with were polite and friendly, but still, I left feeling disconcerted, for lack of a better word.
Talk about your long-winded posts!
I would question any instructor that accepts what amounts to 'challenge matches' from people off the street.
Turning it up with a friend or trusted student is one thing, but I have nothing I need to prove so much that I'm willing to mix it up with someone who I don't know who could have any number of mental/physical/spiritual problems.
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DocWard
Purple Belt
I can be corrected if I am wrong, but I didn't take him to be suggesting that I engage in a "challenge match," but that I act as a uke for the demonstrated techniques. I would not be up for engaging in a challenge match, but hopefully have enough of a background to understand the concepts of techniques and their application.
Yes, but you putting yourself up in a position where you're going to get hit by an instructor implies quite a bit of trust in a relationship that has not yet been built. He (or she) doesn't know who you are yet he's going to start pounding on you? I would also question an instructor that proceeds in such a fashion.
Many folks say martial arts are more about the journey than the destination, and you definitely sound like someone that is looking for the right journey, instead of the destination (of a Kenpo black belt). A better approach may be to see how responsive the instructor is to your interest and your goals. :asian:
ElfTengu
Blue Belt
KarateEsque, the Kempo guy from the USA who I have never communicated with before today, took my comments exactly as I intended.
Stephen, who I have communicated with numerous times over several years on various forums, who lives less than a hundred miles from me as a fellow Brit, and who like me has spent many years training Bujinkan, got completely the wrong end of the stick.
A simple demonstration of some principles was all I was suggesting, some off balancing and simple techniques perhaps, not a challenge match to prove a point.
Whilst I ponder on this, I should also try to reassure Carol that nobody is likely to get hit or pounded at any of the dojos recommended earlier in this thread, or pretty much any Takamatsuden dojo.
The other week my teacher was talking to the instructor from the judo class that runs before our taijutsu class, about some of the things that were taken out of classical martial arts to create judo and he used me to demonstrate some points on. The judo guy was then invited to 'feel' some of what we were talking about and it was simple kyusho points to aid kuzushi, that kind of thing, and nobody's nose was put out of joint and nobody got pounded. Respect was shown for how skilled the judoka are because they are fitter and very good at what they do, but it gave them some idea of their own history that they were previously unaware of, and provided them with something to think about when applying judo on the street (and sneaky things to try during competitions).
Stephen, who I have communicated with numerous times over several years on various forums, who lives less than a hundred miles from me as a fellow Brit, and who like me has spent many years training Bujinkan, got completely the wrong end of the stick.
A simple demonstration of some principles was all I was suggesting, some off balancing and simple techniques perhaps, not a challenge match to prove a point.
Whilst I ponder on this, I should also try to reassure Carol that nobody is likely to get hit or pounded at any of the dojos recommended earlier in this thread, or pretty much any Takamatsuden dojo.
The other week my teacher was talking to the instructor from the judo class that runs before our taijutsu class, about some of the things that were taken out of classical martial arts to create judo and he used me to demonstrate some points on. The judo guy was then invited to 'feel' some of what we were talking about and it was simple kyusho points to aid kuzushi, that kind of thing, and nobody's nose was put out of joint and nobody got pounded. Respect was shown for how skilled the judoka are because they are fitter and very good at what they do, but it gave them some idea of their own history that they were previously unaware of, and provided them with something to think about when applying judo on the street (and sneaky things to try during competitions).
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DocWard
Purple Belt
In the Army we often use the "crawl, walk, run" method. I would expect that any techniques employed would be done at the crawl phase, possibly working up to the walk phase, depending on how much time was spent initially. Any instructor who started pounding, regardless of my background, would not be one that I would work with.
I believe you have characterized my thoughts well, as well as my plans when I do visit. I'm simply trying to go in as informed as possible regarding the art itself.
Sorry about that, the sudafed does that to me sometimes.....
In any case you don't have to be so mean, it was an honest mistake...No need to be calling me derogatory epitaphs like 'Brit'.
In any case, I'd be very careful about how you phrase such a request. Questions like 'I don't think that would work, show it on me' coming from people in their first class can come off sounding weird.
If you're really interested in the martial art I think it's best to go to a few classes first with a bit of an empty cup to get a feel for the lay of the land.
ElfTengu
Blue Belt
Sorry about that, the sudafed does that to me sometimes.....
In any case you don't have to be so mean, it was an honest mistake...No need to be calling me derogatory epitaphs like 'Brit'.
In any case, I'd be very careful about how you phrase such a request. Questions like 'I don't think that would work, show it on me' coming from people in their first class can come off sounding weird.
If you're really interested in the martial art I think it's best to go to a few classes first with a bit of an empty cup to get a feel for the lay of the land.
No worries mate, it's not like we don't make a habit of it!
No harm in asking questions respectfully though, not of the 'that wouldn't work' variety, but I'm sure KarateEsque would be the epitome of tact based on his conduct here.
An open mind is a must for anything new though, unless it's something the local priest wanted to try on you when you were a choirboy!
Good discussion everyone!
KarateEsq there are lots of options for you in your immediate area. Look around and find an instructor that fits you best!
I am sure that you can find a good quality Budo Taijutsu instructor near you!
KarateEsq there are lots of options for you in your immediate area. Look around and find an instructor that fits you best!
Thanks guys. Sorry if I sounded alarmist. I'm sometimes afflicted with the engineer's disease of taking everything literally.
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DocWard
Purple Belt
Thanks guys. Sorry if I sounded alarmist. I'm sometimes afflicted with the engineer's disease of taking everything literally.
That explains why my daughter wants to be an engineer! Or would that be why she takes everything literally?
Hudson69
Brown Belt
I know how you feel I recently left my Budo Taijutsu school because he is dedicated to the teaching styles of "Soke" and will not allow sparring, does not really want to hear anything about modification of techniques for a more modern usability and so on; I am looking to be a better DT Instructor and to do that I need to find out what works for "most" since we have all types and sizes of officers in my department and it must be acceptable by my Training Academy and POST.
I still think you should go for the Black Belt now because of the many systems I have been luck enough to be a part of Kenpo was one of the more physical arts (I am an SSG in the ARNG as well) and I would not want you to go into something less physical even though you are either Army or AF and then regret not achieving that level of training and try to go back and hurt yourself.
Again my perspective on the physical nature of Budo Taijutsu is that it will take anyone and your level of fitness is up to you, they dont care and you can run marathons or be a couch potato you are still okay to train. Kenpo and DT are very different and you need to have a certain level of fitness to be able to work the techniqes and keep up with training --my opinion only--
Same here. I wonder if the issue is, to be blunt, that the quality of Bujinkan instructors in the US varies greatly. To be even more blunt, I think budo taijutsu relies a lot more on fairly subtle body mechanics than Kempo (BTDT) and a lot of teachers simply can't convey that information well. A teacher who can't convey those, who focuses on the "lunge punch" as a firm technique instead of a clever approach to teaching the concepts of body and mind together/stcaking body parts to create an effect, who dumps sparring without adding the myriad of drills to create the same emotional/psychological effect, and so forth is going to give you crappy information. I'd also toss out that several Bujinkan instructors I've briefely trained with didn't actually know the full spectrum of Bujinkan basics and tried to force-fit concepts from other styles they'd studied in to paper over the holes. Much of the time that just flat out doesn't work. If you get one of those guys you'd be much better off in Kempo because it will teach you a solid style with more consistent instructors. Just because I think budo taijutsu has a lot more depth doesn't mean that a mediocre instructor who doesn't know that stuff isn't a waste of your time.
Matt
If I may add, it is up to the student to find a good teacher. Convenience of location is not a factor in my opinion. I've met people who refused to drive 20 minutes or more for a dojo. I personally have commuted 2hrs one way for 11 years just to train, not counting my university days. I also met a couple of 1980's students who had to commute 8 hours one way, so mine is not so bad.
A couple things have stayed consistent in my years of training:
there are a lot of intructors who jumped into teaching way before their time. I've lost count of how many people I met whose ultimate goal was to teach and open their own dojo. It's up to you to figure out if he/she is a good fit.
A lot of people have left BBT because they feel the art itself was too historical and not realistic. Again, find a good instructor, but then again it may be the student... I've seen people in Japan do something completely different than what was shown because they couldn't do it and justified it with saying Henka is part of the art.
Learning the basics has been priority one. Learning how to make a waza "live" was always there. The trend of "alive" training is amusing. I'm not sure it makes English grammatical sense either?
But making a waza live does make sense and the people training close to Soke knew what he meant. Training can be an endurance test. The word "nin" in Japanese also means to endure.
Put it this way: I raised my eyebrow in amazement when I was told it takes about a year to learn to properly punch. I thought really? I can punch!! I mean how hard is it? Then I went to Japan and learned the proper method and it is tough!! I can see why it takes a year. But once you learn it wow!
There are good instructors out there. You have to find them. I know one instructor who chastises his students to go train with other people. Make sure what he is doing is correct.
Sorry, didn't mean to get long winded but I hope this helps.
A couple things have stayed consistent in my years of training:
there are a lot of intructors who jumped into teaching way before their time. I've lost count of how many people I met whose ultimate goal was to teach and open their own dojo. It's up to you to figure out if he/she is a good fit.
A lot of people have left BBT because they feel the art itself was too historical and not realistic. Again, find a good instructor, but then again it may be the student... I've seen people in Japan do something completely different than what was shown because they couldn't do it and justified it with saying Henka is part of the art.
Learning the basics has been priority one. Learning how to make a waza "live" was always there. The trend of "alive" training is amusing. I'm not sure it makes English grammatical sense either?
But making a waza live does make sense and the people training close to Soke knew what he meant. Training can be an endurance test. The word "nin" in Japanese also means to endure.
Put it this way: I raised my eyebrow in amazement when I was told it takes about a year to learn to properly punch. I thought really? I can punch!! I mean how hard is it? Then I went to Japan and learned the proper method and it is tough!! I can see why it takes a year. But once you learn it wow!
There are good instructors out there. You have to find them. I know one instructor who chastises his students to go train with other people. Make sure what he is doing is correct.
Sorry, didn't mean to get long winded but I hope this helps.
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DocWard
Purple Belt
I'm currently an early forties married attorney, father of two, who is also dedicating "one weekend a month" to the National Guard. I don't mind a bit of a commute, but I also want to be realistic, which is why I asked about the ability to use DVDs as adjuncts, and that sort of thing.
I agree, but I also like to get opinions of experienced people when and where I can. It does help in the long run. Also, since the dojo I am looking at is not really the primary business of the people running the dojo, and since they bring in others who seem to have some respect by others here, I would guess your first concern doesn't necessarily apply.
Thanks, every little bit does.
Maybe this will help you also.
http://www.midwestbujinkantaikai.org/
This should give you a flavor of the variety of people out there.
You have some great instructors who come out to your area also.
Good luck!
http://www.midwestbujinkantaikai.org/
This should give you a flavor of the variety of people out there.
You have some great instructors who come out to your area also.
Good luck!
