Here is a Muso Jikiden Iaido Demonstration in London, Ontario.
[yt]ACRfDwkuDaI&mode=user&search[/yt]
[yt]ACRfDwkuDaI&mode=user&search[/yt]
Iaido Demonstration!
- Thread starter Brian R. VanCise
- Start date
Charles Mahan
Purple Belt
I believe that is Nicholas Suino and a couple of his students.
It's interesting that he went with a synchronized Iai style of embu.
It's interesting that he went with a synchronized Iai style of embu.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #3
Hey Charles,
Yes that is Nicholas Suino, Dan Holland and one other practitioner.
I practice with Dan and he is a great guy.
It's nice to see some iaido presented that is actually iaido rather than the baton-twirling nonsense that YouTube usually has.
However, I am struck by several differences on certain moves in the kata between the interpretation that Sensei Suino has and the fashion in which I have been taught. I've often thought, whilst reading his books, that these variations existed and now I've seen them they're very clear indeed.
They're not 'show stoppers' but they are quite distinct e.g. the absence of evasive body positioning in ukenagashi, the flat angle of the cut in kaishaku, the oddly (to me) emphasised stiff furikaburi in yaegaki.
It'd be interesting to get a fuller explaination of how he came to implement these 'differences' and the bunkai behind them - I'm surmising that it is simply that Sensei Suino was taught that way by Yamaguchi Sensei.
I'm not picking fault here, by the way (I'm a bit low down the Dan ladder for that sort of hubris
), just looking at small differences and trying to understand them.
However, I am struck by several differences on certain moves in the kata between the interpretation that Sensei Suino has and the fashion in which I have been taught. I've often thought, whilst reading his books, that these variations existed and now I've seen them they're very clear indeed.
They're not 'show stoppers' but they are quite distinct e.g. the absence of evasive body positioning in ukenagashi, the flat angle of the cut in kaishaku, the oddly (to me) emphasised stiff furikaburi in yaegaki.
It'd be interesting to get a fuller explaination of how he came to implement these 'differences' and the bunkai behind them - I'm surmising that it is simply that Sensei Suino was taught that way by Yamaguchi Sensei.
I'm not picking fault here, by the way (I'm a bit low down the Dan ladder for that sort of hubris
), just looking at small differences and trying to understand them.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #5
I think you are right in that when I have seen different lines of muso jikiden eishin ryu iaido they have almost all had slight differances. I imagine that Suino Sensei was taught this way by Yamaguchi Sensei.
You can view Yamaguchi Sensei in action here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49760
You can view Yamaguchi Sensei in action here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49760
Many thanks indeed for posting up the link again in this thread, Brian - I must've missed that the first time round.
Finding video of 'proper' MJER is like searching for the unicorn so it's very much appreciated when someone finds gems such as these :tup:.
Finding video of 'proper' MJER is like searching for the unicorn so it's very much appreciated when someone finds gems such as these :tup:.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #7
Charles Mahan
Purple Belt
Suino-sensei's iai is kind of a cousin of the line I practice. There are some differences, but I think I can address some of these questions. At least a little.
In Ukenagashi, I see what I expect to see in terms of evasive body positioniong, ie he gets completely off the initial line of attack. If anything he gets significantly farther off the line that I have been taught. Perhaps I am not quite understanding your point. You could try elaborating a bit on what you would have expected to see.
Regarding the cut in Kaishaku, I can offer no help. Our cuts are darn close to vertical. Off the vertical by maybe 5 to 10 degrees. I'm sure he has a reason, but I don't know what it would be.
Same on the furikaburi. It looks somewhat different than what I am used to as well. I wonder if that had anything to do with an attempt to stay synchronized. I've always found that trying to stay synchronized with someone else leads to odd timing and stiff technique.
Charles Mahan
Purple Belt
It is very, very hard to find good MJER out on the internet. Glad you liked them.
This probably has a lot to do with folks not wanting to risk getting in trouble with their seniors for posting videos online. It might be ok, but then again it might not be ok.
Hi Charles
What I was trying to get across with my brief comment on the rising block portion of ukenagashi was that my vision of where the attack is coming in from is such that they stand up into the incoming cut and move the sword forward, taking their deflection away from the incoming stroke whilst leaving the target momentarily uncovered.
How I have been taught is that the sword goes straight up as soon as it can possibly do so with no more forward motion that that necessary to clear the saya (sayabiki is very pronounced to facilitate this). At the same time, the upper body leans away from the incoming cut and the target area (left shoulder) rotates away evasively as the right shoulder 'dips'. This puts a 'wind' into the hips allowing for more snap in the turn to face the opponent.
Watching again tho', the biggest difference we have is that we lean much further back to avoid the follow up cut to the hip/ribs, raising the right foot as a counterbalance and then stamp into our cut.
Interpreting what I see (always a dangerous process) I think where the difference comes in is that the bunkai envisions a less 'late' response than my sensei proposes. If the reaction begins as the opponent closes then I can visualise that the form makes sense. For us, the cut is practically descending when we begin to respond i.e. we've been very complacent and only start reacting as the first overtly aggressive move is seen.
As ever, this is hard to describe and a picture/video would speak a thousand words (or more).
The kaishaku cut is the one that confuses me the most as it is exactly the sort of cut that I've been trained not to make. I think again it must all come down to the bunkai. If it is assumed that the person committing seppuku does not drop their head forward to receive the cut then the flat angle makes sense.
On furikaburi, your insight as to the effects trying to stay in synch with each other might have on technique is a good one.
I have to say tho' that it feels a little wrong to even appear to be questioning what is performed by someone of Sensei Sugino's credentials :blush:. Are we skirting the territory inhabited by the "What If?" monkeys :lol:.
To reiterate, I'm not for a moment suggesting that anything in the video is 'wrong', just wondering why it is different from what I know.
As Brian says, there are always small differences between sensei and I like to investigate their interpretations of the meaning of the kata (this is akin to trying to read the poetry behind the mechanics of verse structure :O).
What I was trying to get across with my brief comment on the rising block portion of ukenagashi was that my vision of where the attack is coming in from is such that they stand up into the incoming cut and move the sword forward, taking their deflection away from the incoming stroke whilst leaving the target momentarily uncovered.
How I have been taught is that the sword goes straight up as soon as it can possibly do so with no more forward motion that that necessary to clear the saya (sayabiki is very pronounced to facilitate this). At the same time, the upper body leans away from the incoming cut and the target area (left shoulder) rotates away evasively as the right shoulder 'dips'. This puts a 'wind' into the hips allowing for more snap in the turn to face the opponent.
Watching again tho', the biggest difference we have is that we lean much further back to avoid the follow up cut to the hip/ribs, raising the right foot as a counterbalance and then stamp into our cut.
Interpreting what I see (always a dangerous process
) I think where the difference comes in is that the bunkai envisions a less 'late' response than my sensei proposes. If the reaction begins as the opponent closes then I can visualise that the form makes sense. For us, the cut is practically descending when we begin to respond i.e. we've been very complacent and only start reacting as the first overtly aggressive move is seen.As ever, this is hard to describe and a picture/video would speak a thousand words (or more
).The kaishaku cut is the one that confuses me the most as it is exactly the sort of cut that I've been trained not to make. I think again it must all come down to the bunkai. If it is assumed that the person committing seppuku does not drop their head forward to receive the cut then the flat angle makes sense.
On furikaburi, your insight as to the effects trying to stay in synch with each other might have on technique is a good one.
I have to say tho' that it feels a little wrong to even appear to be questioning what is performed by someone of Sensei Sugino's credentials :blush:. Are we skirting the territory inhabited by the "What If?" monkeys :lol:.
To reiterate, I'm not for a moment suggesting that anything in the video is 'wrong', just wondering why it is different from what I know.
As Brian says, there are always small differences between sensei and I like to investigate their interpretations of the meaning of the kata (this is akin to trying to read the poetry behind the mechanics of verse structure :O).
Charles Mahan
Purple Belt
There is somewhat more of this kind of hip winding in the way I have been taught as well. This probably stems from a difference in the footwork. My right foot steps up more or less shoulder width, where Suino-sensei's right foot seems to steup up well wide of that position. The closer footwork definitely leads to considerably more torquing in the hips.
We don't lean back at all. If anything we're pushing the sword into the downcoming cut.
Interpreting what I see (always a dangerous process
Sounds like a reasonable assessment. I start to slide my left foot out as my enemy closes and start to rise as he winds up for the cut, but I leave my left shoulder in place on the line until he is committed to the cut, that's when my hip turn and release of the kissaki occurs. It's a tricky bit of timing to get right.
As ever, this is hard to describe and a picture/video would speak a thousand words (or more
Amen
Agreed. The bunkai I have been taught is that the seppuku-in's head droops just before we cut. As a result the neck is nearly but not quite horizontal. With the head drooping forward, a cut like the one in the video would be in danger of cutting through the spine and into the jaw bone where it might get stuck.
Perhaps his bunkai revolves around less of or perhaps no head droop prior to the cut. This would necessitate a shallower angle on the cut.
Agreed. In my experience, specific differences between sensei usually stem from a different interpretation of the bunkai. The differences between Suino-sensei and your sensei probably come from differences in the way their sensei's, or even their sensei's sensei's viewed the bunkai.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #13
Excellent comments by both of you. I have had the opportunity to work with a couple of different lines of iaido and they were and are like night and day. So many differances that in my opinion it is frustrating. (as old habits have to give way to new habits) However having said that I am happy to be working on this line and I am enjoying the very detail oriented appraoch.
One thing that my sensei has always been at pains to stress is that, when you are training in iaido, the fundamental spirit is one of adapting to the requirements of the situation. The extent to which you manage to do so shows how well your studies of the use of the sword are progressing.
He himself has trained under and with a number of MJER noteables (such as Iwata Sensei) and says that each of them has had their own interpretation of kata and bunkai.
In all cases where you are under the guidance of a senior grade, he feels that if you encounter an approach that is different from how your own sensei has taught you, it is encumbent upon you to adapt your execution to the liking of who is teaching you. There is an important "But" in caveat (isn't there always?), you do not put aside what you have already learned. Rather, you add to your repertoire. It's a bit like the adage about the exchange of ideas whereby you end up with more than you started with.
I suppose the precis is that it is not only good manners to take 'on board' what is being shown to you but it enriches your understanding of the art and your ability to handle the sword.
He himself has trained under and with a number of MJER noteables (such as Iwata Sensei) and says that each of them has had their own interpretation of kata and bunkai.
In all cases where you are under the guidance of a senior grade, he feels that if you encounter an approach that is different from how your own sensei has taught you, it is encumbent upon you to adapt your execution to the liking of who is teaching you. There is an important "But" in caveat (isn't there always
?), you do not put aside what you have already learned. Rather, you add to your repertoire. It's a bit like the adage about the exchange of ideas whereby you end up with more than you started with.I suppose the precis is that it is not only good manners to take 'on board' what is being shown to you but it enriches your understanding of the art and your ability to handle the sword.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #15
One thing that my sensei has always been at pains to stress is that, when you are training in iaido, the fundamental spirit is one of adapting to the requirements of the situation. The extent to which you manage to do so shows how well your studies of the use of the sword are progressing.
He himself has trained under and with a number of MJER noteables (such as Iwata Sensei) and says that each of them has had their own interpretation of kata and bunkai.
In all cases where you are under the guidance of a senior grade, he feels that if you encounter an approach that is different from how your own sensei has taught you, it is encumbent upon you to adapt your execution to the liking of who is teaching you. There is an important "But" in caveat (isn't there always
I suppose the precis is that it is not only good manners to take 'on board' what is being shown to you but it enriches your understanding of the art and your ability to handle the sword.
I think that is an excellent way to approach differances in technique and application.
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