I have to reprimend a student

[Bruno@MT]

Here is an excerpt of a text by Dave Lowry, talking about ryuha membership. This is of course focused on a Japanese context, but imo the same applies in other places as well.
The full text can be found here:
http://shutokukan.org/join_the_ryu.html

I don’t care about you.

I realise that sounds terribly harsh. Even rude. And dismissive. Would it help if I hasten to add that in terms of mutual civility I care a great deal about your rights as a person and as a citizen and as, you know, like, a fellow traveler on Mothership Earth? And from the theological point of view of the Christian I care about you from a spiritual standpoint. But you have not contacted me in terms of a civil or religious context. Or on how I feel about you being a shipmate on our shared planetary voyage through the stars. You have asked me about the possibility of instruction in a koryu budo form. And in that context, we may as well be upfront. I don’t care about you.

I care—if you haven’t been so insulted you’ve eschewed reading at this point—about the ryu in which I have been entrusted with some teaching authority. It is absolutely vital for you to understand this by way of understanding my response to your request. In terms of my arts, my primary concern—and everything else is a distant second—is those arts and their successful transmission to the next generation. They are, to some extent, mine to take care of and to pass on. If you had inherited some antique or heirloom, or a similarly valuable object from the past, I would expect you to be circumspect in whom you passed it on to. You have to expect the same from me.

Yes, I know this is not good from a business perspective. And it isn’t how things are done in most modern budo. And it shouldn’t be. Most modern forms of combative arts have been specifically organised and designed to be available to lots of people. That’s one of their strengths. The koryu are different. Not better. Just different. The overwhelming motivation of all those involved in a koryu, especially at the teaching level, is for the continuance of the ryu. The principal concern is not for the members of the ryu. Of course, as we train together, we develop very strong bonds, very close friendships. But the ryu has to come first. If I had a member of the ryu in my group who was behaving in an inappropriate way, I would do everything within my power to convince him to change his ways. In the end, however, if I felt he was detrimental to the ryu, I would go about removing him. This seems cold, I know. It has its roots in a variety of feudal Japanese concepts, too deep to go into here. And you may legitimately argue that this isn’t feudal Japan. Good, though obvious point. Doesn’t matter. It’s our ryu. And we enforce the rules. If you are interested in joining, you play by those rules. We don’t have to defend them or explain them to you or anyone else, at least not at this stage. At any rate, if you can see that I’d be willing to toss a member over the side of the boat if I thought it was necessary for the furtherance of the ryu, you can imagine how little I care about you even being in that boat. You can also imagine how careful others and I tend to be about who we let into that boat in the first place.

 

[andyjeffries]

Here is an excerpt of a text by Dave Lowry, talking about ryuha membership. This is of course focused on a Japanese context, but imo the same applies in other places as well.
The full text can be found here:
http://shutokukan.org/join_the_ryu.html

The snippet you posted was brilliant. Not necessarily sure I agree 100% wholeheartedly, but I think that may be just the wording.

However, the rest of the full text then seems to get a bit egotistical (our art is the best, you should be lucky to join, etc, etc). Interesting, but again, not sure it's my thoughts...

 

[Bruno@MT]

I can see how you could think that but it is not meant to be egotistical. I f you look at it from the perspective of how koryu are organized.

Some arts go back dozens of student - teacher generations, whole and unbroken. And every person who receives the menkyo kaiden license gets entrusted with the continuance of the ryuha. It is his responsibility to make sure there is a next generation. And this is a serious responsibility indeed, because there is no such thing as 'knowing just enough to pass on'. If at one point there is no menkyo kaiden holder left who holds a complete transmission, the line is broken for good, after hundreds of years.

If you join a ryu it should not be your intention to only stay for a year and then leave. All the time the teacher has invested in you was pointless for the purpose of continuing the line. If you join, it should be with the intention to stick it out and pass on what you learned. This is why they make such a big deal of requiring that you are serious.

The part about 'we know the reasons far better than you' is imo primarily aimed at people coming from a western MA culture where such responsiblity and considerations are less important. Many people practice MA for what it can do for them, expect to quit when they feel like it, only teach if they feel like it, make changes to the system / kata if they feel like it... That line of thinking, which is fairly common in modern life, are mutually exclusive with the expectations and requirements of joining ryuha. So unless the applicant knows and understands this enough, there is no point in even beginning the relationship.

 

[Chris Parker]

The snippet you posted was brilliant. Not necessarily sure I agree 100% wholeheartedly, but I think that may be just the wording.

However, the rest of the full text then seems to get a bit egotistical (our art is the best, you should be lucky to join, etc, etc). Interesting, but again, not sure it's my thoughts...

It's very contextual, however there is no statement that "their art is the best, you should be lucky to join etc" that I could see in the essay by Dave Lowry there. And I've read it many times now (that said, in the interest of full disclosure here, I do know a number of Koryu teachers who certainly think along similar lines to that, one who teaches a particular sword system basically has the opinion that if you're not training his system, you're wasting your time!). In fact, Mr Lowry specifically states that Koryu are not better, just different to the more common modern systems.

Koryu are about the preservation of the ryu. That's it. And if someone isn't interested in being part of the preservation of ryu, or acts against it in some way, they should not be a part of it.

Of course, TKD isn't really the same as Koryu (for the record, I have a TKD background, currently train in a Koryu, and am about to add another Koryu to my training. And, again for the record, I have had to re-organise a number of aspects of my life to accomadate them, both personally and work-related). So the attitudes espoused are rather specific to the Koryu systems, and, although they may ideally have a fair amount of applicability to modern systems, the same ideals cannot truly be applied.

 

[andyjeffries]

I can see how you could think that but it is not meant to be egotistical.

I understand/believe that - just saying the way it read to me.

Some arts go back dozens of student - teacher generations, whole and unbroken. And every person who receives the menkyo kaiden license gets entrusted with the continuance of the ryuha

Sorry, can you translate "menkyo kaiden license"? Is it an instructor certificate? Black belt? Something else?

If you join a ryu it should not be your intention to only stay for a year and then leave. All the time the teacher has invested in you was pointless for the purpose of continuing the line. If you join, it should be with the intention to stick it out and pass on what you learned. This is why they make such a big deal of requiring that you are serious.

Which is to me why it comes across as egotistical (from an organisational point of view rather than individual practitioners). There are many reasons students want to learn - self-defence, confidence, love of the art. If they want to stay for a year and they have achieved their goal, I haven't wasted my time teaching them - I'm happy to have helped them in their lives.

The part about 'we know the reasons far better than you' is imo primarily aimed at people coming from a western MA culture where such responsiblity and considerations are less important. Many people practice MA for what it can do for them, expect to quit when they feel like it, only teach if they feel like it, make changes to the system / kata if they feel like it... That line of thinking, which is fairly common in modern life, are mutually exclusive with the expectations and requirements of joining ryuha. So unless the applicant knows and understands this enough, there is no point in even beginning the relationship.

I understand where you're coming from and I understand it, but it just feels "wrong" to me. We obviously view our arts differently and I don't mean to get in to an argument or disrespect this art - it just feels "unusual" (that's a better word choice than wrong) to me.

GJJ has a very similar philosophy to mine, it should be for the world, help people to join our family. If someone wants to join us for a year or for a lifetime, I'm happy to help.

If they want to come along, mess around and be disrespectful - that's a different conversation!

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, your approach there is far from the approach of Koryu, simply joining for a year, if that is all you intend, and leaving is just not the way things are done in such systems. Which, really, is fine. But that doesn't make the Koryu approach arrogant, it just means that there are different aims and ideals for Koryu than for other systems, concerns such as "self defence" are really not a part of the discussion at all.

As to Menkyo Kaiden, it is a licence of full transmission in a particular art, often allowing the recipient to go out and form their own branch of the art itself, or teach it under the authority of the head of the systems, and licence under their own authority (although this is far from universal). It is part of the Menkyo system of ranking, which is literally a form of licencing at different levels. Most typically (but again far from universally) it begins with a level known as Kirigami, which is a formal entrance into the Ryu itself, rather than a true "licence". That is followed by Sho Mokuroku, a list of basics. You then proceed through the licences of Shoden Menkyo (initial level licence), Chuden Menkyo (middle level licence), Okuden Menkyo (hidden level licence), Menkyo Kaiden (licence of full mastery). There are occasionally further licencing, such as Betsuden Mokuroku, such as in the Toda-ha Buko Ryu, which is literally "extra catalogue (of techniques)".

 

[dancingalone]

Actually, the right answer has nothing to do with koryu arts and I am not sure why it is even brought up in this context considering we are talking about taekwondo in Mexico. It's simply what Manny's sabom prefers. His dojang, his students, his livelihood. Manny, as a volunteer instructor in the dojang, presumably knows what the dojang owner would want him to do in terms of discipline, but ultimately the right way to handle discipline and tardiness is what the dojang owner decides it to be.

 

[Manny]

Somethings I must to ad. This is not the fisrt time I ask politely to this man to do things right inside dojang, don't know if he has poor heart or poor comitment, I have to be like a son behind his back cherish him to do kiap!! or to motivate him to lift his leg above belt level. I always encourage him when he do the things right, I have be patient with him always, I have no distintion beetwen the other student and him.

I always told this guy that we must do a good warm up and stretching to avoid or minimize injuries casu at our age they take more time to heal, also I know the fitness condition this man has and I would never push the envelope to the point of a heart atack for example.

This guy has lack of motivation and lord knows I always encourage him, I've put me as an example, my fitness has improve doing TKD and also I have told this guy he can improve too but need to work on it.

I don't want him to leave but in some how need to wake up the lion inside him and make him understand we need comitment and hard work to reach his goals and offcourse courtesy, honor,respect and punctuality.

I will not reprehend him again but I will let him know everytime he shows up late with for a valid reason he will do crunches and pushups and then the full warm up.

When I was a teen (and even now) I had to show up in dojang 10 minutes earlier the class to change clothes and prepare to enter the wooden floor, the person who arrived late only had a 10 minutes delay and even sambonim asked waht happened and the pushups thing was implicit.

Manny

 

[Bruno@MT]

Actually, the right answer has nothing to do with koryu arts and I am not sure why it is even brought up in this context considering we are talking about taekwondo in Mexico. It's simply what Manny's sabom prefers. His dojang, his students, his livelihood. Manny, as a volunteer instructor in the dojang, presumably knows what the dojang owner would want him to do in terms of discipline, but ultimately the right way to handle discipline and tardiness is what the dojang owner decides it to be.

True. The reason I brought it up was as an example of why it doesn't matter if the student leaves or not because of Manny's decision. Manny is running a school and either the student accepts Manny as his teacher without trying to get his own way, or he leaves. My example showed that that is not a bad thing, and could be witnessed in other cultures as well.

Looking at it from an organizational / teaching pov, to the teacher it doesn't matter what the student wants. It only matters insofar as the teacher has to be able to conduct class as he deems necessary.

 

[dancingalone]

True. The reason I brought it up was as an example of why it doesn't matter if the student leaves or not because of Manny's decision. Manny is running a school and either the student accepts Manny as his teacher without trying to get his own way, or he leaves. My example showed that that is not a bad thing, and could be witnessed in other cultures as well.

Looking at it from an organizational / teaching pov, to the teacher it doesn't matter what the student wants. It only matters insofar as the teacher has to be able to conduct class as he deems necessary.

But Manny is not necessarily the student's teacher and therefore it is not a matter of accepting Manny's way or leaving. He may be leading the class and instructing the students in this particular class, but he is not the teacher. The student certainly has recourse in speaking to the dojang owner if he feels he is being treated harshly, although again I presume Manny is acting according to the wishes of the owner.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Sorry, can you translate "menkyo kaiden license"? Is it an instructor certificate? Black belt? Something else?

Ok np. It is a bit off topic, but it means 'full transmission'. It is very important because in the ryuha concept, a ryu can only survive whole, or not. If the last menkyo kaidenholder dies without being able to pass his knowledge whole, the ryu is dead and cannot continue. In this way it is very different from e.g. TKD where anyone with a decent level can open a TKD dojang and still claim to teach TKD.
And this is why Dave Lowry wrote this piece. The ryu can only survive if people dedicate themselve to its survival. That is why the ryu exists, and it only takes one generation to drive it to extinction.

Which is to me why it comes across as egotistical (from an organisational point of view rather than individual practitioners). There are many reasons students want to learn - self-defence, confidence, love of the art. If they want to stay for a year and they have achieved their goal, I haven't wasted my time teaching them - I'm happy to have helped them in their lives.

Yet you would not be happy if at then end, your art dies out because you've not been able to pass it on. For example, Musashi's teachings could be lost forever if the 3 (only ever 3 in this case) menkyo kaiden holders don't pass on their stuff.

That is a very high responsibility indeed.

I understand where you're coming from and I understand it, but it just feels "wrong" to me. We obviously view our arts differently and I don't mean to get in to an argument or disrespect this art - it just feels "unusual" (that's a better word choice than wrong) to me.

No contest there.
Different strokes for different people. I don't even say one thing is better than the other, it is just what feels more suitable to me. Like the difference between a properly broken in leather jacket and a new goretex jacket.

 

[Bruno@MT]

But Manny is not necessarily the student's teacher and therefore it is not a matter of accepting Manny's way or leaving. He may be leading the class and instructing the students in this particular class, but he is not the teacher. The student certainly has recourse in speaking to the dojang owner if he feels he is being treated harshly, although again I presume Manny is acting according to the wishes of the owner.

Ok I did not know that. Though it would be fair to assume that he is acting according to the wishes of the owner. And if he is the active teacher at that point, then he would be perfectly placed to discipline as he deems necessary.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Tonight I had to reprimand a student. This fellow ALWAYS come late to class to avoid crunches, we always start with crunches, in fact sambonim ask us (my students and I) to join his class at the end to do the crunches session and this man always comes late trying to avoid the crunches.

I must said this guy is too lazy and always complains about the exercises,etc. so tonight I could not resist anymore and when the student steped into the mat I put him on a corner and ask him to do the crunches and personaly supervised him to do all of them, I gave instructions to my other student to do his warm up while I was keeping an eye on this lazy guy. The class went cardio and I was behind this guy all the time.

At the end of the class I reprimend him and told him that I start the class at 8:30 pm sharp, and be late is a lack of courtesy, something I dislike alot, also told him everytime he come late trying to avoid crunches I will put him on the corner of the dojang and supervising him again and I dislike this cause I can't supervise the class as I liked.

Maybe I was to harsh but it really pisses me of the way this student behaves.

Manny

Yes, I think you did the right thing. The silly thing is that he is really only shortchanging himself by avoiding the exercise.

Daniel

 

[shesulsa]

I am curious - and maybe you answered this question already and I just didn't see it in my scan of the thread - have you asked him if he has a reason for being consistently late?

If he has to fight traffic to get there on time or works on the other side of town or kids have therapy or something like that, I think schedule conflicts are rather understandable.

It *is* possible to get him into an extra spayshul workout. OR make it a dojang rule - no one works out without warmup. That's a good-health, anti-injury measure that's easy to work into attendance policy.

So ... does he give you a reason? Have you asked? Does it matter?

 

[Manny]

But Manny is not necessarily the student's teacher and therefore it is not a matter of accepting Manny's way or leaving. He may be leading the class and instructing the students in this particular class, but he is not the teacher. The student certainly has recourse in speaking to the dojang owner if he feels he is being treated harshly, although again I presume Manny is acting according to the wishes of the owner.

Yes, I am just an istructor under my sambonim's organization umbrella, if this student wants to speak with sambonim abou it he surely can and I have to accept the coments of my sambonim and even his instructions, he is the master I am only a respectfully instructor.

What I can do is to encourage this student to take things seriusly, be on time and try to give his best and.... if he can not be on time because of family or job/bussiness things or even health issues I have to listen him and just ask him to do his warm up/stretching the right way and sum quiclky to the class.

My sambonims always asked me to do my best performance that's why I am what I am, a true heart TKD man, that's what I want for my students.

Manny

 

[Manny]

I am curious - and maybe you answered this question already and I just didn't see it in my scan of the thread - have you asked him if he has a reason for being consistently late?

If he has to fight traffic to get there on time or works on the other side of town or kids have therapy or something like that, I think schedule conflicts are rather understandable.

It *is* possible to get him into an extra spayshul workout. OR make it a dojang rule - no one works out without warmup. That's a good-health, anti-injury measure that's easy to work into attendance policy.

So ... does he give you a reason? Have you asked? Does it matter?

This guy come late and he takes alot time to change clothes and put on his dobok, it seems he waits till crunches session is over to show up at the mat. It's clear to me that he does not want to do the crunches and the warm up.

I have take note of all the coments here I really apreciate the good and bad critics, maybe I will have to change my mind and don't give su much atention tho this behavoir of this guy, all is very simple, you come late? please do the crunches and push ups and joing the class period.

Manny

 

[TKD_Father]

If this guy is a disturbance to the other students, then I completely agree in singling him out and setting him separate. I absolutely hate it when one student (usually a child) disrupts other students who are really trying to focus on what the instructor is presenting.

If he isn't a disturbance then why push him? The only person he's cheating is himself. Speak with him privately and talk about your concerns, the fact that you want him to excel and these conditioning drills are part of that. You may find that he has something that either hurts or embarrasses him about doing crunches. It must be something fairly serious for him to disregard your class rules.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If this guy is a disturbance to the other students, then I completely agree in singling him out and setting him separate. I absolutely hate it when one student (usually a child) disrupts other students who are really trying to focus on what the instructor is presenting.

If he isn't a disturbance then why push him? The only person he's cheating is himself. Speak with him privately and talk about your concerns, the fact that you want him to excel and these conditioning drills are part of that. You may find that he has something that either hurts or embarrasses him about doing crunches. It must be something fairly serious for him to disregard your class rules.

TKD Father! Haven't seen you post for awhile. How've you been?

Daniel

 

[TKD_Father]

TKD Father! Haven't seen you post for awhile. How've you been?

Daniel

We've been well, thanks for asking. Very busy though with my wife's college, son's school and my work. It's a good kind of busy

How's things in the Hapkido/Kendo world treating you?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We've been well, thanks for asking. Very busy though with my wife's college, son's school and my work. It's a good kind of busy

How's things in the Hapkido/Kendo world treating you?

Pretty good. My students are progressing nicely and daily practice keeps me limber, fit and trim. Good stress release too.

TKD section livened up quite a bit for while, but things seem to have settled down.

Daniel