I get the TMA hate now

[drop bear]

For certain, all TKD schools are not the same. I have seen the full spectrum, from Tai-Chi esque schools to no forms, full contact TKD schools.
I am curious how you can 'quit' your primary style? Why not shore up the lacking skills within that style? You seem to be gaining the experience to do this.
I am also curious if you feel you can practice a style like MMA/BJJ for 30-40 years?

I think you do shore up the lacking skills within your style by training a style where the people are better at it.

So if you moved from TKD to Thai. And suddenly you are interacting with quality fighters. You gain a lot more depth of experience.

I think this is why MMA often trains its component styles.

 

[skribs]

I might demonstrate a showy kick for fun and explain that I probably would not use this for self defense but if the students wanted to learn the showy kick for fun I would teach them because Martial Arts should be fun to learn.

I would never disparage the way boxers punch but I might explain why we punch differently in Hapkido class. The primary difference is in the real world our hands are not wrapped.

Exactly. I do 540 kicks, I have no illusions that they are practical. If I teach them, it will be because I want to teach folks how to show off.

You can share pros/cons without being disrespectful. The HKD guy I'm talking about was saying that boxers are basically playing patty cake and they don't know how to do a 1-hit KO (except Tyson, of course).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So if you moved from TKD to Thai. And suddenly you are interacting with quality fighters. You gain a lot more depth of experience.

Most of the long fist guys will cross trained the praying mantis system because the "speed training" is missing in the long fist system.

For those who only care about "health", the speed training may not be useful for him. But the speed training can make you to feel young. That's a good enough reason to train.

2 days ago, I was slow running in the park. I saw a girl who trains MMA on the grass with fast punches and fast kicks. I suddenly change my slow running into fast spring.

If slow = old/sick/weak and fast = young/healthy/strong, I prefer to be fast than to be slow.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When people compare TMA and MMA, I always like to ask, "For the time that you have spent by striking into the thin air, why don't you use the same amount of time to kick/punch on your heavy bag instead?" I usually don't get any good answer for my question.

Many TMA people who believe that MA can be trained solo. Without opponent, the term timing, opportunity, angle, ... will have no meaning.

 

[drop bear]

Most of the long fist guys will cross trained the praying mantis system because the "speed training" is missing in the long fist system.

For those who only care about "health", the speed training may not be useful for him. But the speed training can make you to feel young. That's a good enough reason to train.

2 days ago, I was slow running in the park. I saw a girl who trains MMA on the grass with fast punches and fast kicks. I suddenly change my slow running into fast spring.

If slow = old/sick/weak and fast = young/healthy/strong, I prefer to be fast than to be slow.

It's not just what is missing. If lomenchemco is running the class down the road. You are obviously going to train with the guy.

Because he is going to make you better at almost any system you do.

 

[HighKick]

I think you do shore up the lacking skills within your style by training a style where the people are better at it.

So if you moved from TKD to Thai. And suddenly you are interacting with quality fighters. You gain a lot more depth of experience.

I think this is why MMA often trains its component styles.

It is sad that several TKD schools have tainted it for most all of them. I think this is why you see more and more schools advertise Hapkido, even it they were doing it all along.
There are good TKD schools, just like there are bad BJJ/MMA schools.

 

[drop bear]

It is sad that several TKD schools have tainted it for most all of them. I think this is why you see more and more schools advertise Hapkido, even it they were doing it all along.
There are good TKD schools, just like there are bad BJJ/MMA schools.

When there are bad bjj/mma schools it is not a mystery to anyone. Because as soon as a good MMA/BJJ guy goes there and dominates everyone in the room. Everyone finds out it is a bad BJJ/MMA school.

So we can literally apply the same standards to BJJ/MMA . And people do. There is a school in Rockhampton that did shotokan/MMA. But they turn out killers. If I was around that area. I would probably be doing the shotokan/MMA

There is a Melbourne school that does judo/MMA.

A lot of people in Australia do Muay thai/ MMA. This is because Australian Muay Thai is world class. In America you might get more wrestling/MMA or Brazil BJJ/MMA. (Although that is changing and people are becoming more well rounded)

There is a very easy way to separate good practitioners who know what they are doing from not so good ones.

And this might be skribs revelation. That people from a good school are happy to mix it up with you. And so you know instantly if you are getting out struck and out grappled and therefore if that guys method is valid.

 

[drop bear]

So for example Dan Kelly should theoretically not be the strongest MMA system coming from a judo background.

But if we look at the evidence we can determine whatever it is he does. It works.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Controversial title for a lot of folks on here, and for that I do apologize. I'm not saying I hate TMAs. I just now have a much better understanding where such opinions come from.

When I was training Taekwondo and Hapkido at my previous school, it was very difficult to be in a lot of debates with folks on "MMA vs. TMA", because neither of us had enough of a picture to really discuss it. I had no experience with the combat sports, and they didn't know my particular gym. These debates arguments basically boiled down to me watching Muay Thai videos and comparing what I see to what I do in TKD, and them telling me they took an Aikido class once so they know how my Hapkido class trains.

A year ago, I started BJJ. Six months ago, Muay Thai. Now, I have a lot more experience to bring to the debate than I did before. I've made another thread about this, but the summary is: I feel validated in what I've trained and how it was trained in TKD/HKD, but I also have a lot to learn about BJJ/MT.

I've also tried a Hapkido class here, and spent three months at a Taekwondo class here, and now I can see why these arts get so much skepticism on here and on other sites by folks who do primarily combat sports.
The Hapkido class was 45 minutes of warmups (basically yoga) followed by 15 minutes of class. It included the Master saying things that made sense (i.e. "HKD is only for defense" and "I won't trash talk other arts, I'll just teach you what I know"), followed by being an absolute hypocrite (students working on jump split kicks for their next test, him crapping all over the way boxers punch).

The Taekwondo class was the softest martial arts class I've ever seen, outside of Tai Chi. In drills, partners would fall before you even made contact with them. At one point he said, "Don't actually block their arm because you might hurt them." His specialty was forms, and yet 99% of his upper belts didn't even know what moves they were supposed to do, or have any idea how to correctly do them (i.e. doing scissor blocks in the forms without even crossing their arms). Some of them didn't even know the proper names of the forms, when they had only one form to know at each belt. (Not learn: know).

I can certainly see someone going from a school that says "We only teach pure 100% self-defense" and does jump split kicks to a Muay Thai school and seeing the difference in what actually works. Nothing against jump split kicks, but don't try and say it's 100% for the streets. I can see someone going to a school that says "Don't block the arm because it might hurt them" to a BJJ school and hearing "Bumps happen, keep going", and wonder why TKD is so soft. I also can say for sure what my previous school is and isn't like, because I have combat sports to compare it to, and I have other TMAs to compare it to.

I am now the guy who quit TKD to spend more time at BJJ, even though I still consider my primary art TKD.

What you are experiencing natural when you experience things outside your martial arts.

When System A interacts with System B, Then both will benefit from that interaction. Your TKD will become better as you experience other martial arts either through training in a different system or through sparring against other systems and discussions with other systems.

Things are just easier for you to see because you are out of your box. You are no longer System A vs System B. You should se a big leap in your tkd growth.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When System A interacts with System B, Then both will benefit from that interaction.

When someone said that he had trained both Taiji and Sanda. I asked him when he fights, does he use Taiji, or Sanda, or both.

 

[Anarax]

Controversial title for a lot of folks on here, and for that I do apologize. I'm not saying I hate TMAs. I just now have a much better understanding where such opinions come from.

When I was training Taekwondo and Hapkido at my previous school, it was very difficult to be in a lot of debates with folks on "MMA vs. TMA", because neither of us had enough of a picture to really discuss it. I had no experience with the combat sports, and they didn't know my particular gym. These debates arguments basically boiled down to me watching Muay Thai videos and comparing what I see to what I do in TKD, and them telling me they took an Aikido class once so they know how my Hapkido class trains.

A year ago, I started BJJ. Six months ago, Muay Thai. Now, I have a lot more experience to bring to the debate than I did before. I've made another thread about this, but the summary is: I feel validated in what I've trained and how it was trained in TKD/HKD, but I also have a lot to learn about BJJ/MT.

I've also tried a Hapkido class here, and spent three months at a Taekwondo class here, and now I can see why these arts get so much skepticism on here and on other sites by folks who do primarily combat sports.
The Hapkido class was 45 minutes of warmups (basically yoga) followed by 15 minutes of class. It included the Master saying things that made sense (i.e. "HKD is only for defense" and "I won't trash talk other arts, I'll just teach you what I know"), followed by being an absolute hypocrite (students working on jump split kicks for their next test, him crapping all over the way boxers punch).

The Taekwondo class was the softest martial arts class I've ever seen, outside of Tai Chi. In drills, partners would fall before you even made contact with them. At one point he said, "Don't actually block their arm because you might hurt them." His specialty was forms, and yet 99% of his upper belts didn't even know what moves they were supposed to do, or have any idea how to correctly do them (i.e. doing scissor blocks in the forms without even crossing their arms). Some of them didn't even know the proper names of the forms, when they had only one form to know at each belt. (Not learn: know).

I can certainly see someone going from a school that says "We only teach pure 100% self-defense" and does jump split kicks to a Muay Thai school and seeing the difference in what actually works. Nothing against jump split kicks, but don't try and say it's 100% for the streets. I can see someone going to a school that says "Don't block the arm because it might hurt them" to a BJJ school and hearing "Bumps happen, keep going", and wonder why TKD is so soft. I also can say for sure what my previous school is and isn't like, because I have combat sports to compare it to, and I have other TMAs to compare it to.

I am now the guy who quit TKD to spend more time at BJJ, even though I still consider my primary art TKD.

I've also switched from TMA to MMA as well and agree with your take on some of the issues with TMA schools. I think the decline in the overall quality of TMA schools are training culture shifts and resources. The TMA school I used to go to would separate classes by age and rank. The separation helped me for I could train with people roughly my size and rank, this would usually make training sessions more productive. As attendance went down all the classes were combined into one, which hurt class productivity. Training with kids or uncommitted lower ranks that would do drills incorrectly due to ego/ignorance was a huge hinderance. TMA schools have also been going though an identity crisis as well, trying to get new people through the doors has caused some of them to resort to different marketing approaches. The example of your previous schools being "self-defense" but does high-level kicking techniques is a great example of this. The training being softened to such an extent that there's no longer combative viability is another major issue with some TMA schools, you're cutting off the arm to save the hand(intentionally incorrect and backwards.)

The MMA gyms I've been to adopt some of the older practices many dojos used like separating classes by rank/experience and by age. I haven't left my MMA gym feeling I wasted my time nor had an unproductive session. Many MMA gyms have a lot of students, this gives the gym(s) much more revenue than a typical Dojo. The gyms I've been to clearly put a lot of the money back into the gyms equipment, amenities and coaches. I will always be appreciative of TMA and will have some element of it in my life. However, acknowledging the shifts that it's gone through and how to navigate through/around it is something to be considered.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When someone said that he had trained both Taiji and Sanda. I asked him when he fights, does he use Taiji, or Sanda, or both.

What was his answer?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What was his answer?

His answer was, "You have missed my point."

A: I train both Taiji and Sanda.
B: When you fight, do you care whether you may use Taiji or Sanda (I believe this is a proper question to ask)?
A: You have missed my point.
B: ???

It's just like when people put a dislike mark under your post. They won't bother to say why?

 

[JowGaWolf]

His answer was, "You have missed my point."

A: I train both Taiji and Sanda.
B: When you fight, do you care whether you may use Taiji or Sanda (I believe this is a proper question to ask)?
A: You have missed my point.
B: ???

It's just like when people put a dislike mark under your post. They won't bother to say why?

Lol that's horrible. When he fights does he punch, does he kick? Ask a BJJ practitioner and we'll get a definite answer. Things like that avoid the question. Maybe the real answer is "I don't fight so I don't know." Which is fine to answer this way.

 

[drop bear]

It is the element of not showing their work that bugs me. You make a claim, test it live on everyone and see how it goes. And the claim is either proven true or false.

I have no time for claims that haven't gone through that process. I don't have time for people who haven't gone through that process.

There is just too much good training from quality guys out there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is just too much good training from quality guys out there.

The "silk reeling" training is a good example. How much of your training time do you want to spend on this?

It's just "body push/pull arm" training. There are better training than this that can help one's combat skill.

I believe this "body push/pull arm" training has more combat value.

 

[marvin8]

The "silk reeling" training is a good example. How much of your training time do you want to spend on this?

It's just "body push/pull arm" training. There are better training than this that can help one's combat skill.

Yes to your question. Push/pull, silk reeling or action/reaction is a principle.

At 2:40, Nick shows how to apply cloud hands/silk reeling in MMA.

Cloud hands in a fight, Davis vs Patera...

https://imgur.com/8Pt6a5M

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes to your question. Push/pull, silk reeling or action/reaction is a principle.

At 2:40, Nick shows how to apply cloud hands/silk reeling in MMA.

Cloud hands in a fight, Davis vs Patera...

https://imgur.com/8Pt6a5M

I have my doubts about that application as shown. I can see the direction of his energy change which tells me that something is off. There is also something missing from the technique as well.

I think it's a reach where he looked at another sport to see if there were similarities. Tai chi has a lot of grappling so I would start with that asdumpfirst.
The wave hands like clouds application I learn was more like what is in this video. And that it's done in grappling range.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To rotate your body in one direction and then to rotate your body into the opposite direction is used all the time in Chinese wrestling. It's as simple as to borrow your opponent's resistance force and meet him in halfway.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

https://imgur.com/8Pt6a5M

This may be the major problem for TMA. It's so funny that for those who

- fight, they don't talk about "silk reeling".
- talk about "silk reeling", they don't fight.

I truly don't understand the reason. Why?